Help for identifying 20 ga side by side underlever hammer shotgun.

[Himik]

Hello there!

I have an old misterous side by side hammer 20 ga underlever shotgun. And trying to figure out when it was maked, who was the gunsmith who created it and some more information at all. I have figured out some stuff, but not sure if everything is right.

Germany is entering the proof marks 1890-1891. Every gun before that have been marked with V and crown. After that it is mandatory to mark it with the marks that the gun have. Around 1912 they have started smokless test for the guns and they have Nitro mark ... and the gun does not have such one. After 1939 they change the marks and they are different.

I have found some similarity in style with some guns from Peter Oberhammer from Munich (sending some side by side comparison). I know that the comparison is with drilling, but the style for me is quite similar. I have read from this (http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/arc...ter-of-munich/) web site that you thought it was from P. Oberhammer, but it was from Ludwig Oberhammer (his son).

Can you tell me some more information about this gun? Or can you find some references for it somewhere? Or point me in some direction?
Here are some pictures of it and the comparison.

[Himik]

Some more

[Himik]

[Himik]

[Himik]

[Himik]

[mike ford]

Himik,
From the proof marks you identified, the gun was made between early 1893 and 1911. Note that the left barrel was proofed to fire a single projectile ( bullet) ( crown G mark) and the right barrel was proofed to fire shot ( crown S). This is a little bit unusual, as German combination guns with side by side barrels usually have the rifle barrel on the right, whereas Belgian and British guns often have it on the left. There was no law, that I know of, that required that, it is just an observation. Axel may be able to identify the maker. One of the photos shows bright spots next to the rib, near where a rear sight would be located, could it have had a rear sight at one time?
Mike

[Himik]

Mike,

not sure, but from bottom to top we have:
1. 20 with 20 in circle,
2. U with crown,
3. Eagle,
4. Eagle with S and crown,
some way to the next. Here on the left are bearly visibile some cown with something under it and on the right is something like flipped 3.
5. Eagle with G and crown

But we have S and crown and G with crown on both barrels.

I am not sure for the bright spots. I thought the rib was unwelded at some point and it was porly welded again? That was my explanation.

[mike ford]

Himik,
You described marks that I couldn't see in the photos, but you have the gun "in hand" and I don't; so I will try to address the marks you see. The 20 in a circle means it has 20 ga. 65mm long chambers. The 20( no circle) means the bore diameter of the barrel in front of the chamber is 20gauge. A crown U is the mark for the View proof, which includes a detailed inspection. An eagle is the mark for a Preliminary proof of the barrel. When combined with the crown U, it is for Definitive proof with the Preliminary proof charge, before the View proof. Since you can see a crown S and crown G on both barrels, maybe they were both proofed for the use of both shot and bore size bullets( we call them "pumkin balls" here) in smooth bore barrel. I don't believe a crown G would be required to use Brenneke slugs. Maybe Axel can shed more light on identifying the maker. Look closely at the rib for a joint, where a short section of rib might have been soldered in to replace a folding rear sight. If the rib is clearly solid, then there had been no sight.
Mike

[Himik]

Mike,

I think the rib is clearly solid ... so the guess then is there had been no sight. I saw that https://www.waffen-oberhammer.de/en/ is working and send them email in hope of finding something. I know it is long reach, but hoping for the best.

[mike ford]

Himik,
Good luck. Even if they have no records, they will likely know more than I, plus I'm sure they would enjoy seeing the photos.
Mike

[Himik]

I have some progress.
There is V with crown on one of the barrel and on top (in the center between the hammer heads) there is another V with crown.

I have found that in Germany the V with crown have been used only from 1 January 1893 until 31 March 1893 and it is used only from gunsmiths/dealers to mark their existing stok. Got it from here http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/ab...ers-catalogs/jagdwaffenkunde-georg-koch-1899/ page 23

There are some kind of initials A W or something like that near the serial number, but on the barrel. Here is picture of it.

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And a wolf on the other side:
proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7gYHwCG.png&hash=71f11ab680e8edf082efe77c538dc73a.png
proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOXBqZlJ.png&hash=4bb2bf1d4b792de0684e6ad558007d1f.png

Hope to not imaginete it but you will say. Also have been told that the choices for the mechanic who performed the knitting of the tubeset with the initials >>AW<< are pretty much A. Wolf -> Adalbert Wolf.

Also have been told that it was made in Zella St. Blasii - Mehlis and that the adornment was performed by Gustav Ernst or one of his students.

Here is some kind of house/crown ? But can not identify it.
proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FStI76UL.jpg&amp;hash=b009aa8607634c3cf8ec777edc348bdc.jpg

Also here is some kind of U in rectangle ?


VXT6qOc.jpg


Can someone recognize them?

[Himik]