Help identifying this drilling chambering (with pics & chamber cast)

[andy]

Hi everyone, I'm a new member (first post) and recently the proud owner of my first drilling and wanted to say thanks to everyone here for the info I've gained here over the last year as I read up on them in preparation to buy.

So, I finally got it here a few days ago and just did the chamber cast today and wanted to see if you guys might be able to shed some light on exactly what chambering I have. I have been reading a lot this past year but I am a novice to all this and would appreciate any additional info/thoughts you might have on the gun as a whole also. Any info/dating on the firearm as a whole is very welcome.

I've attached a photo with info of the chamber cast and a few photos of the various markings, if anything doesn't show up clearly or more photos are wanted just let me know and I can do it tomorrow.

Is the diameter change at 2.242 that I'm referring to as a "shoulder" actually a shoulder/bottleneck, or is that the end of the brass case/start of the projectile?

I have decent measuring equipment here so let me know if I missed anything and I should be able to give you more comprehensive/detailed numbers.

I hope to get brass dies for this after identifying the chambering, and have it ready with cast bullet loads in time for partridge/deer season this coming fall, so any thoughts toward that end are also appreciated.

I had to drop a few photos to get it down to 5, it's marked franz kettner koln-suhl on the shotgun barrel tops, krupp stahl on sides, nitro on bottom sides.

Thanks,
Andy

[mike ford]

andy,
It would be great, if everyone provided data like you did. I can say right away that I believe your drilling is chambered for the old 9.3x57R, which was the German version of the British 360 Express 2 1/4". Since yours is nitro proofed( 2.2 grams rifle flake powder), it would be the equivalent of the British 360 Nitro Express 2 1/4". Both the German and British versions vary from each other and within each version regarding different dimensions. Yours would be useable with bullets intended for the well known 35 Remington. The new "Flex Tip" bullets should perform well. Various 35 caliber rifle cast bullets would be great and some cast pistol bullets should work in "fun" loads. At the same time, the "standard" 9.3x72R bullets would work well, as they are made to work in a variety of groove diameter barrels. For cases, you can buy expensive Bertram cases or make them from 9.3x72R cases, use original length( 2.125-.130") 38-55 Win. cases, or buy/make( much work) cases from 30-40 Krag/ .303 British cases. Dies should be available from CH4D and maybe other makers. I often load cartridges similar to this using combinations of different dies, such as 35 Rem., 9x57, etc. adjusted to fit. Common primers and powders are useable, depending on your preferences. It looks like you have a fun project on your hands, and one I have been looking for, for some time. Good luck, have fun.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, imho this is not a 9.3x57R 360 aka .360 2 ?", but another forgotten member of the "360" case family, the 9x58R Sauer & Sohn. The 9.3x57R was a blackpowder number originally, mostly replaced by the 9.3x72R after 1900. Guns for this cartridge would have been proofed for a KmG = copper jacket bullet just like x72Rs, but this drilling was proofed for a St.m.G = steel jacketed bullet and 2.2 g = 34 gr smokeless rifle flake powder. According to a 1920s Steigleder catalog, the 9x58R S&S was loaded with 2.2g = 34 gr 1910 smokeless and a 16.0 g = 247 gr .356" steel jacket bullet for about 1850 fps. Your recipe for loading ammo remains the same, of course. I would use slightly heavier, 225 gr Speer .358" bullets and .35 Remington load data.

[andy]

Thanks so much Mike, I have been very excited about this and checking the thread often since last night to see if anyone wrote back, so I was very glad to see your post! Reading and thinking it over since last night I was also leaning toward the 9.3x57r 360, so I was glad to see that is your thought thought on it too. I didn't even know that cartridge existed until late last night, fun learning about this stuff!

I am looking around for dies but the fact that there are two different versions (not interchangeable shape right?) of this has me reluctant to buy anything. I see that the CH4D dies for this are designed around a .366 bullet, so I am guessing they wouldn't be appropriate for my rifle.

Any good combination of readily available dies that can work for this cartridge? Or am I in custom die territory?

Do you need to full length size cases for a drilling to get them to close (assuming they are only fired in that one rifle chamber), or is neck sizing-only an option?

[andy]

Hi Axel, thank you for your info as well. I took a while to write back to mike's post and yours came in in the meantime. I searched around on that cartridge (9x58r sauer) and found the following dimensions shared by a member a few years back on the "cartridgecollectors.org" forum

START QUOTE
posted by:
buckstix
Jun '13
.
Thank you very much. I?ve converted your info to inches as follows:

Bullet diam: 9.07 to 9.10 mm, 250 grains ( old RWS load) = .356" - .357"
Mouth diam: 9.70 to 9.78 mm = .381" - .384"
Base diam: 11.03 to 11.10 mm = .433" - .436"
Rim diam: 12.60 to 12.75 mm = .495" - .501"
Rim thickness: 1.00 to 1.05 mm = .039" - .041"
Case lenght: 58.24 to 58.50 mm = 2.28" - 2.30"

OAL should be around 78 mm = 3.07"

END QUOTE

Axel does that line up with your dimensional info on the 9x58R Sauer? That does seem to more closely match my chamber cast info than the 9.3x72r 360 although they are very close. I am biased I think because I am worried about the two different variants of the 360 based case though.

[mike ford]

andy,
I should have paid more attention to the photo of the chamber cast. The 9.3x57R is a "necked" cartridge and the 9x58R is a straight taper. Axel is therefore absolutely correct. I should have noticed this as I have been lusting after a hammer double rifle in 9x58R( although marked 9x58 1/2) that is owned by a friend, for years. Yes, you can load it with common dies, if you fireform cases in the chamber first you can use 35 Remington or 358 Win. dies. You will have to size the cases to fit into the chamber so they can be fireformed. This could likely be done with 38-55 and 35 Rem. in combination. If you use the 2.125" length 38-55 cases, 35 Rem. dies may be enough, but you will likely need to thin the rims. these cases will be a little short, but you can seat the bullets "out" to the same oal. If you use 9.3x72R cases, you will have to shorten them considerably, but the rims won't need thinning, in all likelihood. You may need to start the sizing with 38-55 sizing die ( maybe not) but you won't be able to run a 9,3 case all the way into the die because the 9.3 case is .427-9" at the head, whereas 38-55 head diameter is .421-2". The 35 Rem die is large enough at the base to let the entire case in and is short enough that you can size the neck back far enough that the case will likely chamber with out having to use the 38-55 die. If it won't, then that is when you need the die. The case will likely look odd at this stage but when fireformed it will conform to the chamber. To fireform cases, I load 6-10 grains of Bullseye, tamp 1/4 sheet of toilet paper over the powder, fill the case with used polishing media/grits/ corn meal/or cream of wheat and stop it off with toilet paper/ wax/ or similar. Try one or two first, and if they don't fill the chamber, increase the powder a little. If you use 38-55 cases there will be a noticeable bulge ahead of the solid head area, but this is ok. The rim diameter should center the case at the rear. If the first one is noticeably un even at the mouth, you can bell the others to center them there as well. Once you have the cases fireformed, you can adjust the sizing die to just size the neck enough to hold the bullets. At this point, loading the ammo is pretty straight forward. Axel recommended the 225 grain bullet and there is nothing wrong with it, I just prefer the 35 Remington type bullets for my use, because they are made for similar velocity( two of my 9.3x72Rs can use this bullet). If you want to use cast bullets, the Lyman mold # 358318 drops a 250gr round nose bullet that my cousin uses in his 9.3x72R. The Lyman # 358315 drops a similar bullet, but 200 grains. If you can find the Express type bullet for 9.3x72R, you can likely use it to good effect also. Sorry about the mistake.
Mike

[andy]

Thanks guys, this is all great news as I already have a 35 rem I load and cast for and so in addition to already having appropriate molds I can even make use of the same sizing die.

I very much appreciate the case forming info, as that will be the hardest step on the path to shooting this old girl. I'll get some long 38-55 brass or 9.3x72r brass on the way to get the ball rolling. I've got the RCBS 35-200 mold on hand and will probably start with that if it fits ok, and I've got a friend with a couple other .35 molds on the heavier side I can try out too.

Anyone have a solid guess on when this drilling was made? According to the chart on the german hunting guns page the powder charge format over the bullet type suggests pre 1912, but the Nitro markings suggest 1912-1939, right? Does that mean it's an interim/1912 era gun or am I interpreting one set or the other incorrectly?

I would be happy to get closer/better photos if there is a certain area that needs to be more clearly visible. I tried chalking the markings but couldn't get them to look any more readable than bare metal.

[mike ford]

Andy,
As I have already proven, I am sometimes wrong, but here goes. Marking the proof load was changed to showing a "duty" load by the 1911 improvements( the drilling has the older proof load). The 1911 improvements to the 1891 proof law changed marking the bore diameter by gauge measurement to using mm dimensions and also added length of the longest case, also in mm( the drilling has bore diameter in mm, but no case length). We know it was proofed in Suhl by "Nitro" being written in block letters. Suhl didn't start showing proof date until around 1922, whereas Zella-Mehlis was dating them before the 1911 improvements. All this suggests the drilling was proofed around late 1911 to early 1912, when the final procedures for implementing the 1911 improvements were being worked out. Your assessment agrees with this very closely, but all these indicators are for the date it was proofed, which is usually( but not always) close to the date it was made. The double rifle I mentioned above is an ED. Kettner, that was actually made by Sauer and there is a fair chance your Franz Kettner was also made by them. If you can show clear photos of the barrel flats we might be able to see unique Sauer markings. You mentioned having "decent measuring equipment", if you also have a lathe then thinning the rims of 38-55 cases won't be too bad. If you don't have access to a lathe, you might decide to use the more expensive 9.3x72R cases. If you have a problem with either the rims or sizing the cases for fireforming, PM me and I will try to help.
Mike

[andy]

Thanks again Mike, great to know the likely date range on it that is very cool. Here are the best photos I have right now of the other barrel markings, if there's a certain area of interest let me know and I'll try to retake zoomed in on that spot. If anyone has any chalking/photo tips I would be glad to know how to get better close up photos. I could try a different camera too if helpful.

A couple markings I see that may not be easily noticed are the "RS" and the KG KG in what looks like two diamonds on the rifle barrel. The shotguns barrels have 'fluss stahl' partially obscured by the soldering on the underside as well.

I do have a lathe so that should make things simple if I go the 38-55 route, I see that (although pricey) 8x58r Sauer brass is available from Bertram, am i correct that I could neck that up to this cartridge or would that not work out well? 9.3x72r Norma isn't too horribly priced so I'm considering that too.

[mike ford]

Andy,
The marks I was looking for are one or two crowns( larger than the ones over the proof mark letters) and a "Wildman"( with club) or sometimes a "SuS". I didn't see any of them. I believe the two KGs in diamonds are the mark of the barrel maker. There were a couple barrel makers in the area whose names started with K, I think Klett and Kelber but Axel knows more about that. The RS is likely the touchmark of some one else that worked on it, maybe bundled the barrels together, but there is no way now to identify the person. The Bertram 8x58R brass can be used, but I would fireform it rather than neck it up. When I neck something up that much it often comes out un even and has to be trimmed to square it up. It will lose some length in the expanding. You don't have to lose much length until you may as well use the 38-55 cases, in addition to the difference in cost. If the donor cases are long enough to trim back, I will neck them up since it's easier.
I just thinned the rims of a batch of 35-55 cases to make 6.5x58R and a batch of 22 Hornet to make 5.6x35R Vierling cases. I have a Jackob's chuck that fits the spindle of one of the lathes and I chuck the case with the rim against the chuck jaws, to locate it. Then I set a carriage stop to locate the carriage (at the same place every time) and adjust the depth of cut with the compound slide, to fit the case to the rifle. Then I set a cross slide stop ( threading stop) to center the cutting tool on the primer pocket. The operation then is: chuck the case, run the cross slide to the center, run the carriage to the stop and lock it, start the lathe and cut from center out, move the carriage out of the way and file a radius on the rim, deepen the primer pocket with a Lyman primer pocket uniformer ( I haven't had a problem, but if you don't like it you can switch to large pistol primers). Turn the lathe off, take the case out and repeat the operation. As the last step, back in the loading room, I chamfer the primer pockets by hand with a neck chamfering tool ( when I did it under power, it was too easy to take too much out). This wouldn't be necessary with Bertram brass or 9.3x72R.
Mike

[andy]

Thanks again for the response Mike, it is great to be able to get all of this info so quickly. Looking over the markings again today I don't see anything that could be the wildman with club (I did find an image of that on another forum, good to know of the Sauer & Sohn connection to that), or anything that would be a SuS type marking.

Thanks for the thoughts on the use of 8x58r brass, I'll probably steer clear of that given your info and the high cost.

Do I understand right that you are removing the rim thickness from the rear end of the rim of the 38-55 brass (headstamped portion) as opposed to the forward edge of the rim? I had read it was safer to remove from the front side, but I don't understand why it would matter which side it was taken from (other than the primer pocket issue you mentioned) so I am open to all thoughts on it. Am I right to assume you get good case life/no case head splits/separations with this method?

I've attached photos of the engraving/receiver/bullet trap just in case that sheds light on anything in terms of maker style, and just for fun since they are pretty cool looking. It has a horn buttplate with simple horizontal lines and a steel pistol grip cap that is engraved. It is hard to see in the photo but the rifle on/off markings are highlighted with gold as is the safety on/off.

I haven't had it apart yet but I know I will eventually, so any info/cautions on how to proceed with that are also appreciated.

I did measure the shotgun chambers today with the brownells gauge that just came in, the left showed 2-9/16" right on the nose and the right was maybe 1/32"-1/16" longer.

[Axel E]

Gentlemen, what makes you think about Sauer & Sohn as the maker of this drilling? Read http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/arc...-eduard-franz/ Franz Kettner , 1875 ? 1963, was a master gunsmith himself. He learned his trade at the factory of Christoph Sturm in Suhl and was a friend of Bernhard Merkel. At first, he had "his" guns made by both Merkel and Sturm. Later, he bought the Sturm factory and expanded it. Franz Kettner was a more real gunmaker than the "famous" (known in America only) H.A.Lindner. This drilling was made by Sturm or, more likely, Bernhard Merkel for Kettner.

[andy]

Thanks for the link Axel, that is a great read. All of this stuff is very fascinating to me and I appreciate this sort of info very much. I don't know much about Sauer & Sohn or how to ID drilling makers, so I'm defaulting to your and mike's knowledge on it. Do you have any thoughts on using the 38-55 brass vs shortened 9.3x72r brass? Im on the fence on that at the moment.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I thought S&S might be a possibility only because the only other 9x58R S&S I had seen was made for Ed. Kettner( I know it is different than Franz Kettner) by Sauer and the only photos available then were of the barrels.
Andy
The "school solution" is to remove the brass from the front of the rim, true enough, and I have done so myself . In cases where I can do so with out problems, I prefer removing it from the rear, as it is much easier to locate the cases so as to have rims of the same thickness, and it removes the headstamp which would no longer be appropriate. They will be your cases and my feelings wouldn't be hurt ,at all, if you elect to thin them from the front, or if you elect to use one of the other possible donor cases that won't require thinning.
Mike

[Axel E]

Do you have any thoughts on using the 38-55 brass vs shortened 9.3x72r brass? Im on the fence on that at the moment.

Not many. Using .38-55 brass, you have to alter the rims to fit your chamber and end up with a case that is about 3 to 4 mm short. 9.3x72R brass must be shortened considerably.
When I reported some time ago about making 8x57R 360 cases from 9.3x72R brass, Mike Ford asked why I sacrificed scarce 9.3x72R brass instead of using common .38-55, I answered: I had the same idea, so I asked the familiar suppliers here in Germany. After several phone calls, not a single .38-55 case turned up. So I simply drove 10 miles to the Kassel Frankonia shop and bought a bag of S&B 9.3x72R brass. It's a simple question of availability and costs to me.