30R Blaser

[sharps4590]

Does anyone have a few 30R Blaser brass they would be willing to sell? I need 3-4 to check an idea.

[sharps4590]

Nevermind, found that Huntington's had them in stock. Kinda high compared to common cartridges but, they had them. Evidently RWS is the only maker. Besides, who know's when a fella might need some 30R Blaser....

[mike ford]

Vic,
Anyway, if your idea works, you might need them.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, the chambers on that "new to me double rifle" are cut pretty generous. I think I mentioned I'm getting a .006 to .009 bulge in front of the case head. After 3-5 firings the bulge hasn't gotten any bigger and the head hasn't changed anymore either. I looked at every case that was close and I'm quite certain the 30R Blaser can be made to work. The rim will probaby need turned by .010 and the most I might have to take off the head should be no more than .0025 by the best I can measure at the chamber. I don't think the bulge will hurt but I don't like the idea of what seems to me has to be an unsupported case head....and the more I work with this rifle the more I like it soooo....I'll try this, I think it will work fine.

[mike ford]

Vic,
I don't think a bulge of that size will hurt much, as long as you use loading dies correct for the caliber of the rifle. That way, the body won't be sized and expand that much, every time it is fired. With the correct dies, the expansion only occurs once. The "unsupported case head" is the solid part of the head and this usually doesn't cause a problem as long as the expansion is within reasonable limits. Charles Askins gave an approximate limit of about .015" total, but there was some "play" in that depending on conditions. The caveat to this is you must "headspace on the shoulder to prevent case lengthening every time it is sized and fired; which will cause case head separation. Even where I have to thin the rims to remove excess headspace, I still set the sizing die to just "kiss" the shoulder and not set it back. Your experience with this cartridge is precisely the same as mine, when I make 5.5x61R Vom Hofe SE cases from 30-06 Rimmed cases. The new "school solution" for my case is to use 30R Blazer, so if you are bothered by the bulge, you are on the right track.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Thanks for your insight Mike, I appreciate it. Today I started measuring the brass every firing. The head has only grown about .002-.003 and the bulge is up almost .020. 8 X 57 dies are big enough to neck size without setting back the shoulder, however. Unless I am going to identify the cases to a specific barrel, I need to bump the shoulder back. Obviously that's going to do exactly as you mentioned, set up conditions for a case head separation. I'm creeping up on a regulating load. With IMR-4350 at 45 grs. both barrels have started shooting nice, round 3 shot groups of about an inch at 50 yards, give or take a little. Both are shooting to the same elevation, about 1 1/2 inches high at 50 yards. Problem is they are about 5 inches apart, soooo, seems I need more velocity, or, maybe try the 170 gr. bullet again. At 39 grs. of IMR-4064 it fell on its face. 4350 might be nicer to it. Diz sent me some Quickloads data with IMR-4831 and it appears well worth trying. Eh, it's a journey, the chasing is what makes it fun and educational. Anyone can go to Wally World or A-Kademy and buy ammo.

[mike ford]

Vic
Since both chambers would have been cut with the same reamer, at the same time, there is a much better chance they are close to the same than if in two different rifles. I suggest you mark the heads with different markers, shoot them, reload them, then purposefully try them in the other chamber. You may find they will work, but if not you may only have to set the shoulder so little that it wouldn't cause a problem. Of course, it might take a lot, but at least you would know. Axel likes VN 140( I think) as a substitute for the old German R5 powder. In my area this is uncommon, but I have found that the military "pull down" 4895 I use often is also close to R5. If you reduce the load a little, then work up; you might find that either H or IMR 4895 will work ( or the VN140 if you can find it). This is what makes it fun. Good luck.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Well, I've already done that. The left chamber is larger than the right. I size the cases so the rifle will just close in the right chamber. The difference isn't huge but it does exist.. I wish I could get a picture of the chambers. They were not well done. The rear of the chambers show significant tool marks, they are not remotely smooth.

I thought about 4895 but as my 4064 loads are close to max, according to Quickloads, and, isn't 4895 faster? I'll have to look, I can't keep them all straight. I have a couple loads to try but it's too cold and windy today. Tomorrow is supposed to be better and Saturday better yet. I'll post the results. I'll get there....eventually.

[mike ford]

Vic,
Sizing the cases like that is about the best you can do. Even if you lose a few cases, that is better than having to load for each barrel. Truthfully, I never had good luck with 4064, I tried it in different cartridges, but it never worked better than other powders, in my rifles. I do use it in my 358 Enterkin Magnum, but that is Gene's H.P. White tested load, I didn't work it up myself. Powders with similar burning rates often behave differently in different rifles, 4895 was only a suggestion, it might not work at all. I am a little uneasy about the chambering( although you can work with whatever you have), I never did see a mark showing it was rechambered to 8x65R. Under the 39 rules, it should have been marked to show the commonly used name of the cartridge( I guess even if it has Czech markings). Do you think it is possible to make a chamber cast? The next larger German 8mm cartridge is 8x68R, but from the expansion of your cases, I really can't believe it is chambered for that cartridge( head diameter about .532"). With the expansion you are seeing, 8x57 sizing die may size the body ahead of the head, will the seating die size the neck enough to hold a bullet? Do you know anyone with a set of 325 WSM. dies?.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I have the chamber dimensions from just in front of the web, where the bulge is to the case mouth I and can measure the head from the rear of the barrel. At that point I get .480 in one barrel, (30R Blaser dimension) and .482 in the other barrel. Obviously I'll have to size in the 8 X 65R sizing die then trim and fire form. It isn't marked as to what it is that I can see. Who knows but that it was some one shot proprietary cartridge? The seller never said it was the Brenneke cartridge, but that it was close by his cast. Evidently we have different definitions of close.

I've had pretty good luck with 4064 and have an abundance of it which is why I chose it to start. I like 4895, both of them, and if 4350 or 4831 doesn't work, it's next or, maybe one of the Reloder powders. I'm just going to have to find the powder that has the right velocity with the right pressure and the correct recoil impulse with the right bullet. I did load 4 of the 170 gr. bullets over 4350 just to see if that powder worked better with them. From what I see on the cases the 8 X 57 die touches the shoulder just about right to set it back a little. and doesn't touch the body. If that didn't work I have my 8 X 58RD dies. Neck tension is good. Hopefully the Blaser cases will be here today or tomorrow....and I can start over.....lol!!

[mike ford]

Vic,
If you don't have the Blazer cases yet, are you using the 7x65R? if so are you trimming them? If you have to trim them ( or if you don't) that would give insight as to what the chamber is. With the dimensions you reported, I'm surprised the 8x57 dies don't size the body of the case. I didn't know you had 8x58RD dies, or I would have recommended them.
Mike

[sharps4590]

The cases arrived today Mike. I don't have a shellholder that works good but did manage work up two cases. I looked up the shellholder and if Huntington's is right, 8 X 57R might work for the shellholder and I have a 7 X 57R holder....I think, and it might work. My goodness, what a difference in their shape after fireforming. And no sir, I can't see any evidence of the 8 X 57 die sizing the body. I don't think the body much past the shoulder gets in the case far enough as it's a lot longer, 13mm, than the X57 case. And yes, I'm still using the 7 X 65R cases. Boy, those RWS cases are hard and tough as well as thicker I believe but, that could be because of the pressure the 30R Blaser works at. I might have to thin the necks, haven't got that far yet.

[sharps4590]

Ha...didn't have one but, by placing a .022 feeler gauge under my 40-70 shellholder, it's perfect. It got me going till I can get a proper one!

[mike ford]

When I started loading 7x57R I didn't have a shell holder, so I opened up my 30-40 holder with a Dremel tool, until it fit( I ground it a little larger, to keep from "crowding" the 7mm to one side or the other) and I still use it for 30-40. When I started loading 9.3x72R, I did the same thing with a 30-30 shell holder. You can't reach the rim recess, but it's not much problem to fit the body diameter( really the extractor cut). It seems like you are having fun, good.
Mike

[sharps4590]

The 40 -70 fits fine. The rim...depth is too thick/wide/deep(?) and on the up stroke the holder slips up and dings the case. Not much but the 3 or 4 burrs it turns up have to be filed off. I stick that feeler gauge under the case while it's in the shellholder and it fits like it was made for it. 'Course you have to remember to put it in every time.....so far so good....lol! My 44-40 shellholder is just a bit too small and I was going to open it up like you mentioned but...the 40-70 works so good I left the other alone. Huntington's list says one of two 300 Win. Mag holders will work and I thought I had one....I still have my 300 dies but, no joy. No shellholder in the box. Eh...no matter, they're all formed, trimmed and primed. I do have to think the necks quite a bit so I'll shoot them once with a forming load then turn them. Always something but, when I'm finished I'll have 20 cases that fit as they should....and I'll probably order another box tomorrow...just in case....uh-huh, yeah, right. No doubt I'll work them up.

I did shoot the last 7 X 65R cases I loaded and the bulge and head grew again so, I'm finished with them...and the 4831 load crept a little closer. There's 4 grs. difference water volume between the Norma 7 X 65R cases and the 30R cases, in favor of Norma so I'll have to watch closer.