Vierdort double rifle..

[sharps4590]

A couple weeks ago I sold my E.M. Reilly double rifle sooooo....that freed up some funds for a project. I came across this one and have made the purchase. The rifle should be here late next week. I do have a couple questions but first, some info. The seller made a chamber cast and sent me the dimensions along with his opinion. Unlike so many selling German firearms this seller left me with the impression he was fairly knowledgeable. He believes, as do I and a couple other friends, that the rifle is chambered for the 8 X 65R Brenneke. The chamber cast dimensions really leave no doubt. My question, not that it matters, is, what was the 7,7 over 62? Was that an original chambering and the rifle has been rechambered to the Brenneke cartridge or is the "62" not a relevant part of the 7,7 stamp?

The seller also thinks the rifle was proofed in 3/43 but all I can see of that stamp is the "3" and it is not on the barrel flats, rather it is forward of the flats on the barrel. Was the proof date ever stamped there? I know there was some war production but.....well, I just don't know. The date doesn't "feel" right to me...which is also rather meaningless. At any rate, it seems a much earlier rifle to me if what I understand of earlier proofs is correct.

Sooo..those are my questions. Any insight from the wealth of knowledge on the board? Oh....forgot, here's the link.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...c&lctid=273610

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
I don't believe the gun was made in 1943. It has a crown U view/reproof which was abolished by the 1939 Proof Law , in favor of a Eagle( Reich Adler) with J under. Also, Dixon gives 8x62R Vierordt ( and 8x65R Vierordt) as being based on the English 360 ( such as 9.3x72R) case head. It was used from 1906 to 1914, approximately. Also 13 grams is 200.6 grains, rather than 185. I couldn't make out the Original proof marks, when you receive the rifle, additional photos would help. Vierordt &co, Kehl had ties to Gustav Kersten and I believe Stendebach. Axel can explain better the location of Kehl and the border movement over the years, sometimes in France and sometimes in Germany. As to the question, the 7.7 is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter and the 62 is the nominal case length. Note that this is a very different cartridge than the 8x65R Brenneke, unless it was rechambered sometime in it's life.
Mike

[sharps4590]

That's what I was thinking Mike, about the proofs. I still get a little foggy on them. If Don's chamber cast is correct, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, it was definitely re-chambered to the Brenneke cartridge. As that appears to be the case then it seems to me I'll have to use a reduced load of the 8 X 65R, yes? Oughta be a fun one to get to regulate, huh. Of course I'll do my own chamber cast and slug the bore for confirmation when it arrives and, try to get more/better pictures of the proofs.

Edit: If it was re-chambered in Germany, wouldn't it have a crown over R stamp? And, what is what looks like an "N" with a little man in it?

[mike ford]

Vic,
The mark you asked about is the one I wanted a better photo of. It looks like a Czech. smokeless rifle proof (which matches the reproof), but I'm not sure. That is what my question about the location of Kehl was all about, it is on the other side of Germany from where it looked like the proof mark was from. If the reproof was done in Suhl before 1922, then it wouldn't be dated. The string of numbers on the barrels may give a date. It looks like it was made somewhere else with marks not recognized in Germany, then reproofed in Germany. If it was rechambered, I think it should have been reproofed with the "Repair" mark and the caselength changed. If that wasn't done, it was likely rechambered here. I wouldn't worry that much about it, if I were you, until I checked the chambers myself. A quick check would be to see how a sized 8x57IR case fits. If it has been rechambered, a 196 to 200 grain bullet at 8x62 R Vierordt velocity ( what ever that is) should regulate and limit the pressure at the same time, if appropriate powder is used.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Neither inserted image No. 1 nor No. 2 is a perfect fit. No. 1 lacks a crown and No. 2 does not seem to fit. They are Czeck Weipert-markings. No. 1 is given as being from 1962(??) and No. 2 is from 1939.

0d.JPG
Also:
0e.jpg

I don't know if 22371.41. is for passing proof in 1941. It's merely a suggestion.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Now, this is all very confusing to me, which is not all that uncommon with me. I'm "shaky" enough with German Proofs, but when other countries' marks come in, every body is better off listening to someone with more experience than I have. We have a mark that seems to be from Weipert, the one Peter thinks has a 2 in it would be a Vienna BP Definitive proof. The crown U without date, crownB or Crown G, would be consistent with reproof of a finished rifle at Suhl. The bore diameter, case length,and make of the rifle are consistent with a pre- WW1 caliber. Maybe Axel will weigh in soon.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Mike,
I have no idea if it's a Vienna proof mark but if it is they changed from 4 to 2 at some time. I don't think that the image I inserted (the one with No. 2 in it) is the one that's actually on the gun but it was as close as I could come. Just to be my usual annoying me I opt to fight my corner and stay with Weipert.
OCP.JPG
However, it's possible that over time they changed the markings and if so, I'm incorrect. I can live with that. Also I can find no reliable date to fit the other marking (the one with No. 1 in it).
OCP2.JPG

EDIT: I never wrote that I saw a 2 in one of the proofs. In fact, I just tried to find a marking that looked like the one on thread topic. I own a gun with one of these proofs with digits inside them and very often you can't make out what digit there is. You have to go by the surrounding markings. On my gun there are no surrounding markings..............

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

The rifle was apparently originally proofed pre-WW1for the proprietary 8x62R Vierordt cartridge by the Suhl proofhouse. In 1941 it was rechambered (?)to 8x65R Brenneke and proofed again by the Czech Prag proofhouse. (1938 to 1945 Weipert in the Sudetenland was annexed by Grossdeutschland and used German proofmarks). So the rifle was in Bohemia at the start of WW2.
Gustav Kersten invented his double Greener crossbolt lockup, better known as "Kersten - Verschluss" , in 1899 and merely protected it by DRGM # 123283. This protection ended 1905. Kersten was a military armorer and stationed in then German Strassburg (German to 1681, French til 1870, German to 1918, French again since) on the west bank of the Rhine. As a Prussian government official Kersten was not allowed to run a business of his own openly. So he crossed the river to Kehl in the state of Baden, on the east bank opposite Strassburg, and formed an unofficial partnership with the gunshop Vierordt & Co. As Vierordt was no real gunmaker, they had their guns made by the Suhl guntrade. Their Suhl branch was handled by Christoph Sturm first, from 1909 to 1920 by Friedrich Stendebach. In 1922 the Suhl shop was sold to Krieghoff. Vierordt had a branch in Bad Kissingen, Bavaria too, a posh spa at the time. Vierordt marketed the various Kersten designed guns under their trademark Luchs = lynx as Luchs I to Luchs IV. This dr is a Luchs I, te classic "Kersten - Verschluss".
At first Kersten supervised the production of all Vierordt "Luchs" guns, but by 1910 the partership had broken up and ended in quarrels. At that time Vierordt & Co. was owned by a Carl Rehfus, a Kehl hat factory owner. Rehfus is better known under his pen name "Oberlaender" as a then popular author on hunting, dog breeding and handling. He is credited with creating and initial breeding of the German Wirehaired Pointer. You can still buy dog leashes and collars "Modell Oberlaender". Soon after F.Stendebach apparently took over Vierordt & Co. Now the history gets very muddy, as usual with the many Stendebach / Stenda companies in Suhl, Frankfurt a.M., Augsburg, Saeckingen and Leipzig.

[algmule]

Hello

Alex1911.jpg
Alex1912.jpg
Alex1912-2.jpg
Alex1912-3.jpg
Alex1920.jpg

Up until 1907 I have a Friedrich Stendebach, Geschoss-Fabrikant, in Leipzig-Gohlis. In 1910 Friedrich Stendebach had a Gescho?-Fabrik in Suhl. By 1913 he was advertising as a Waffen- und Gescho?-Fabrik. In the years 1916-17 he was involved in Westdeutches Walz- und Presswerk Becker & Holl?nder Abteilung Waffenbau. Zweigniederlassung Suhl. Autumn 1919 Stendawerke Metallwarenfabrik, G. m. b. H. Abteilung Waffen in Suhl opens as a Zweigniederlassung to the Hauptniederlassung in Frankfurt am Main. The outlet was run by Kaufmann Max Stendebach and Direktor Walter van Endert. The outlet in Suhl was a G.m.b.H (Gesellschaft mit beschr?nkter Haftung) as well. In 1924 the Inhaber is still Max Stendebach. By 1936 there are two Friedrich Stendebach in Augsburg involved in weapons manufacturing/retailing. If this second Friedrich is the same Friedrich as the one who I have first encountered in 1930 and with the titles Ingenieur and Filmschauspieler (later Waffen-Techniker) I don't know but I suspect this is the case. 1940, in Augsburg, is the last trace I have of any Stendebach establishment.

to be continued in the next post

EDIT: Maximilian D?rr I have encountered before. I just can't remember in which business.
EDIT again: address for Stendebach's Gescho?-Fabrik in Suhl was Beiersgrund 3.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

Hello

continued from my previous post
Alex1906.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[sharps4590]

Well, evidently a post of mine got lost somewhere in the stratosphere of the internet. Sooo....

Axel, if I read your post correctly the rifle was indeed proofed for the 8 X 65R Brenneke and, within reason and deference to the old rifle, I should be able to safely use that data?

And, thank you very much for all you've posted and so willingly sharing your knowledge and expertise.

Peter, thank you for your information as well. EVERYONE is greatly appreciated!!!!

Vic

[Diz]

Vic,

The original cartridge specifications have been elusive to say the least. Most references seem to give it the same general characteristics as the 360 No2 NE as far as case dimensions and shape goes. Sketchy at best but that would mean a bullet of about 320 grains going 2150 fps if you match it up to the 360 NE. I would think very easy to do in the Brenneke case and run at safe pressures as well. Maybe Axel has some ballistics for that one. Good luck with your project.

Diz

[mike ford]

Vic,
Do you have 7x65R cases?

Peter
I think - Gescho? Fabrik is likely "Geschoss Fabrik ( ie bullet factory).
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Mike Ford,
I don't know if you're trying to be a comedian or if you're deliberately trying to upset me. For your information: the forum does not accept neither the Umlaut nor the German double s which I believe is called Eszett. Letters with an Umlaut (a and o and u) and the Eszett (the German "double s") are replaced by a question mark. You might have noticed that the name in my profile no longer has an Umlaut (that would be the two dots over a, that no longer are there) but instead the name in my profile is now algmule (without the two dots over the a).

Do you see the difference?
Moose Snoot.jpg
I suggest you google the upper word. Raimey did once. What an algmule (that would be the word without the two dots above the a) is I don't know. If you want me to change the name in my profile to ?lgmule, let me know. Perhaps you need a new name in your profile as well? I suggest Tiresome.

However, it's wonderful that all you got out of the information in my post was a reason to perform OCP. The Swedish translation of the New Testament says: "Ge inte det som ?r heligt ?t hundarna, och kasta inte era p?rlor ?t svinen; de trampar p? dem och v?nder sig om och sliter s?nder er.". I believe it's Matthew, somewhere in chapters 5-7.

If ever I go to the U.S.A. I will try to squeeze in some time at your German classes............................ or maybe not. If indeed the spelling of Geschoss should have the Eszett I don't know. German is not native to me, nor is English, or Swedish for that matter. I hereby apologize if I misspelled Geschoss.

Vic,
thank you for appreciating the information.

Peter

[sharps4590]

Mike, I have 25 on the way and I do have 9.3 X 74R cases. Diz, the 9.3 X 74R are the ones you sent me....however long ago that was. COTW, if it's correct, says the 8 X 65R Brenneke was based off it. So, by the time the rifle gets here, tracking # says Thursday, I should be set whichever one it takes.

I'm thinking I can just neck up the 7 X 65R cases to 8mm, enough to hold a bullet, then fire form them. Then, if one of my 8mm dies works all I should have to do is neck size them. Just need one with a bigger shoulder.