Vierdort double rifle..

[mike ford]

Peter,
I was trying to do neither, I just thought the advertisement was old and un- readable, with the ss not clear. I didn't notice you removed the umlaut from your name and I didn't know anything about that use of the ?. I thought we had a good relationship and was always grateful when you offered helpful information. Don't worry, I won't try to help again, I didn't intend to insult you. I don't have a German class, I need to take one myself, what little I know I learned by living, working and hunting in Germany and making a lot of mistakes but trying to learn from them. If you do come to the US we can go to the hunting area and shoot rifles. I would be glad to have you visit.
Vic,
I suggest fireforming the 7x65R cases with out a bullet. To seat a bullet, unless the 8mm expander is one of the newer tapered ones, it is likely to make the neck uneven and have to be trimmed to square it up. It will shorten some anyway, but not much. Some people would turn a 7mm shank on an 8mm cast bullet to avoid necking up, but using a filler is easier . I don't see any reason you can't load them like you mentioned with your 8x57 dies, you might need to remove the expander if you use .318" bullets though.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Never thought about just fireforming them first as I'd always just necked them up. I'll have to check all my 8mm dies. Some of them are newer and I do know my 9 X 71 Peterlongo, C&H-4D dies have a tapered expander plug so, maybe one of my 8mm's do as well. I have a couple other .318 barrels and have done as you suggested about removing the expander plug. It's always worked so far. Thank you sir!!

While we're at it, do you have an opinion on using the 8 X 65R data if need be?

I couldn't find any data on the 8 X 62 Vierordt but just guessing, I would assume, given the era and history of other cartridges of similar size and caliber the 196 gr. bullet at somewhere between 2000 and 2300 fps?

[mike ford]

I usually necked them up too; it worked well when the donor case was longer than the final case. I ran into trouble when I made some cases that were the same nominal length as the donor cases ( I don't remember the caliber but maybe 9x57 from some 8x57 cases I had). They shortened a little due to neck expansion, but the main thing was uneven necks and I had to trim them all to match the worst one. On the other hand if you neck down the same length case, you may need to trim to length- ie 9.3x72R to 8x72R. As far as using 8x65R data, since Axel said it was proofed for 8x65R, there is no safety(pressure) reason not to. On the otherhand, to find a load that shoots both barrels to the same( about) POI is a different story. Given the age of the 8x62R Vierordt, I think your guess for the velocity is reasonable. For just the difference in cartridges, I would guess low end 8x65R loads would likely work( better than having to go up). The mounting of a scope( original barrels were likely regulated with open sights) may add another variable that I don't know of a "rule of thumb' to account for; but you are experienced in "load and shoot" method. You will have a lot of fun with this one.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Vic, congratulations on getting that rifle. I have a similar Kirsten double rifle in 8x57JR and a cape gun in 16 x 9x57R. They are very unique actions that are either disliked or loved for their looks. I have been told by a few people they look like a frog when viewed from above. They are light weight guns and a pleasure to carry. My only dislike is that the double 8x57 thin barrels heat up quickly after the first shot and so the second shot is not close to the cold barrel POI at 100 yards so it is best used as a close range hunting rifle. Both barrels shoot within 2? to 3? at 100 yds when shot cold which is fine for hunting. The cape gun in 9x57R is more accurate than the 8x57 and I have taken 3 African game animals beyond 200 yards. It also doesn?t have as much problem with barrel warpage as I can reload and shoot a second consecutive shot and it is still within 2? at 100 yards. Must be the 16 gauge barrel and different rib thickness makes a difference in how the heat is distributed. I?m taking it for Caribou this fall as I have that much confidence in it.

[sharps4590]

Thank you Mike, as usual. That's about where I was thinking.

Leatherman, I'm looking forward to the rifle's arrival tomorrow and the beginning of study of a new to me rifle action and cartridge. I would think the action has to be bull stout. However, unlike yours, the first thing that's going to happen is that new-ish Leupold scope is coming off and going up for sale. If the action looks like a frog....and I can certainly understand why anyone would say that, I agree with them...to me, that new scope on an old rifle looks like lipstick on a pig. In time mine will be replaced with a proper vintage, German scope. Then all I'll have to learn to tolerate is the new bases for the Leupold rings. Sometimes it's a challenge being such a hide bound traditionalist....

[mike ford]

Vic,
According to what I see, you can use the Leupold rings if you want to, or you can remove them and the bases that fit into the clawmount bases. Then you could have clawmounts fit or a set of the newer swing mount conversion of the clawmount bases( both EAW and ERA have such conversions). Be aware that if the existing scope was mounted in Europe or by a European trained gunsmith, the rings might be epoxied to the scope tube. Good times ahead.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Tomorrow will tell the story, unless the weather gums up the works.

[Axel E]

Axel, if I read your post correctly the rifle was indeed proofed for the 8 X 65R Brenneke and, within reason and deference to the old rifle, I should be able to safely use that data?
Vic

Vic, as you wrote, a chamber cast pointed to the 8x65R Brenneke as the current chambering. The 8x62R Vierordt had an 11 mm = .433" base, while the 8x65R base was larger at 11.95 mm = .470" base. So if a 7x65R case fits your rifle, it is in 8x65R now. BTW, the 8x65R is merely a necked up 7x65R case, using .318" bullets like the old Vierordt number. I simply expanded 7x65R necks, no fireforming necessary.
I found no ballistics or load data for the 8x62R Vierordt. Apparently it was obsolete, out of print after WW1. I guess it was about the same as the 8x57IR, just with a longer but slimmer case. As the rifle was proofed again in 1941, it must have been for a cartridge then available. That's the 8x65R Brenneke. There is some load data for the 8x65RS, .323" bullets, but I found nothing for .318". Years ago, I simply loaded 50 gr VV N140 behind the .318" 196 gr S&B jacketed bullet for use in the E.Eckoldt ou combination of a fellow forester. Of course, I don't know if this load will shoot in your double rifle, even if it was reregulated in 1941 for any 8x65R load then available.

[sharps4590]

Thank you very much, Axel. I do have a question, just for my edification, which mark is the re-proof or, did you answer that and I missed it? I did wonder if perhaps I might use 8 X 57IR starting loads. A little more study and I believe I'll have a starting load anyway and I can work toward regulation from that.

I picked up the rifle a couple hours ago and after cleaning the bores, (they are bright & shiny and weren't too terribly dirty!), I couldn't stand it and fireformed two cases. It is indeed the 8 X 65R Brenneke. I'm going to slug the bores shortly and that will confirm what they are.

I had some concerns about the Kersten, (Kirsten?) double lock up and whether or not it would appeal to me aesthetically. I don't believe I've ever seen one in person before. I'm surprised and impressed. It isn't anywhere near as clubby as I expected. It isn't an Anson & Deeley or a side lock but it's quite svelte for the steel it requires. It's a keeper and now the fun begins!

[Axel E]

Thank you very much, Axel. I do have a question, just for my edification, which mark is the re-proof or, did you answer that and I missed it?

Yes, you did. Reread my first post here (Quote:
The rifle was apparently originally proofed pre-WW1for the proprietary 8x62R Vierordt cartridge by the Suhl proofhouse. In 1941 it was rechambered to 8x65R Brenneke and proofed again by the Czech Prag proofhouse. (1938 to 1945 Weipert in the Sudetenland was annexed by Grossdeutschland and used German proofmarks). So the rifle was in Bohemia at the start of WW2.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Wouldn't a 1941 proof mark for a reproofed barrel be a Reich Adler over a J ? In my first post I looked for one and couldn't find it. I admit I can't move the photos around to find everything though.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Vic, I agree with you on having period German scopes on these guns if possible. Both my guns I pictured came with period but doubtful original scopes mounted in period claw mounts so that search and expense was in the price of the guns. But as you know the quality of glass and the small field of view of the 22mm tubes make them very hard to use in thick cover woods in early or late light. Along with the low power magnification further restricts the distance these original scopes can be used. That said I put the 30mm 1x7 high end scope on the Cape gun for a hunting trip in Africa where I would be hunting everything from 700 pound plains game out beyond 200 yards to hunting ducks and quail with the 16 gauge barrel, and yes I did keep the scope on the gun dialed down to 1X which worked extremely well. The scope also had illuminated recital ,which came in handy for some night Bush Pig hunting. I could not have done what I did on that hunt with any period scope and with the expense and effort in a destination hunt you don?t take inferior gear. I?m the first to admit that 30 mm scope looks awful on that slim double rifle but that package is the best all around gun I own and it will be used more than any of my other guns because I have confidence in it. I changed the scope on the 8x57JR rifle as well and the pictured scope didn?t hold up to the recoil and now sports a Burris 1x5 that allowed it to be mounted 3/4? farther back which it needed because of a 15? length of pull on the stock. I couldn?t even get a good field of view on the original scope that came with the rifle. The P.O. must have been a long necked guy. Luckily I make my own claw mounts whether original design or using modern high bases so I use modern glass on the guns I plan to use and the the bases go with the gun when I move them on.

[sharps4590]

For a trip to Africa a fella is wise not to scrimp or perhaps rely on near 100 year old optics. However, I am loathe to scope about anything these days. Ain't sure why because in decades past about everything I owned was scoped and I certainly have nothing against their use. Knowing me, it's the challenge of open or aperture sights, I guess.

This is the only rifle I own of over 45 that is equipped with a scope or, will be so equipped, though as long as I can see good enough for open sights, it will never be used. Where I hunt these days, when I rarely hunt anymore, 75 yards is about the limit. Ain't sure what happened but in the last 5 or so years the fire in my belly for hunting has burned pretty dim.

[Axel E]

Axel,
Wouldn't a 1941 proof mark for a reproofed barrel be a Reich Adler over a J ? In my first post I looked for one and couldn't find it. I admit I can't move the photos around to find everything though.
Mike

Tere are no German 1941 reproof marks, but a Czech Lion/N Nitro proof mark and the Czech ledger number with the 41 date. So the rifle was rechambered and proofed in Prague 1941.

[sharps4590]

That was the question I had Mike but I was ignorant of the Reich Adler...still am except for your post!! I found the Czech proof in Wirnsberger's and given the rest of the story put together what I hoped was correct and, Axel confirmed..