Collath

[kcordell]

Hi,

I met a few folks from the GGCA a couple of years ago at the vintagera in pintail point. If I recall, I heard someone say that someone was doing research in Collaths and present documentation on that research. Curious if this is accurate and if anything has been released?

Thanks,

[germanguns1234]

As for Collath guns, we hope to have a journal out about them in the near future and/or to reprint their catalogs. If you have questions about Collath ammunition, we have some information there as well. What do you need?

[kcordell]

Thanks for the reply. I don't have any specific questions just interested in reading the combined data when ready. I have quite a few collaths hence my interest.

[C. Roger Bleile]

I don't know much about Collaths but they must have made lots of guns judging by the number of them I see at gun shows. Most of them I see are really beat up and worn. I don't know if they were "liberated" in that condition or if the GI's and their descendants used the hell out of them.

[kcordell]

Wow... I have never seen a Collath at any gunshow let alone drillings in general. You must be in a good area. Agree with you on the general condition of found Collaths.

For the forum, I do actually have a question. Does anyone have data on the 9.3x82 Nimrod?

[mike ford]

kcordell,
You can get cases from Bertram; I think MidWay, Huntington, and Buffalo Arms handle these cases. Bullets for 9.3x72R would be appropriate for this cartridge. If you already have 9.3x72R dies, you can likely use them. If not, I'm certain that CH4D can supply them. Buffalo Arms, may have dies "in stock". You can use 9.3x72R load data as a guide, but the almost half inch longer case can complicate matters a little bit. I would try to duplicate 9.3x72R ballistics,not try to make a magnum out of the 10mm longer case. I've found that a convienent way to work up a load, it to try to make it "follow the sights" with whatever bullet weight is shown on the rifle.If one is not shown, I try to use the most common one avaliable at the time the rifle was made. Due to the long case, bulky powders may work better.Trail Boss,may give good results, when used according to their instructions. One of the 5744s may ,also work well.I am from the "old school", so my 9.3x72R loads use different powders, and need a tuft of kapok tamped over the powder to insure uniform velocities. Friends that use 5744, do so with out any filler. My experience with this powder in other old cartridges, is very favorable.I don't like using blackpowder in my guns, but this opinion is not shared by a couple other members. It is likely that either Jon or Vic will come in shortly to advise on the use of BP. I hope you find this useful.
Mike

[kcordell]

Thanks Mike for this data! Hey quick question on Collath #1 shotgun shell. How do you typically shoot C1 as on this model US 12 gauge is a bit too large and does not appear to work like a 16ga does to a Collath #3 which I have had lots of success with. For this gun, I had inserts made for 20 gauge and they seem to work well.

[sharps4590]

Hey kc...

First thing I want to ask is was there two, (or more!!) 9.3 X 82R's? A Nimrod and another case of the same name? Certainly wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened.....on the Continent or this side of the pond. Caliber and length is certainly a good way to identify cartridges but it can sure lead to confusion once in a while!!!

Midway did have a couple boxes of 9.3 X 82R a few months ago as I bought one. I think Buffalo Arms had a box or two also and maybe even Grafs. My cases were Bertram and I reformed them into 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. They came out well but I've only gotten to shoot 5 so no info or good data to date. If you have an interest in BP loads lemme know. I'm certain we can work up something acceptable....and maybe more accurate than that newfangled smokeless stuff!

Vic

[kcordell]

I am into BP, I frequently load and shoot 10, 12 and 16 ga shotguns. I am a little weak on rifle loading but interested in loading for this and another I have in 11.15x65r. This one appears to be easier if the brass is available. Do you know if any of the vendors custom load this or is it better to do yourself. I have the press but no dies at this time.

[mike ford]

KCordell,
I don't have any experience at all with the Collath sizes of shotgun shells. If the difference between Collath#1 and 12 ga is not too great, I would think it would be possible to resize 12ga. brass shells to be useable. Brass cases are avaliable from Magtech, I believe. Normally,brass cases require wads a ga. smaller than the nominal size. Maybe normal 12 ga. wads would work in resized cases. If not, you could laboriously make fiber wads. Very simple shop made dies would be sufficient to load a few shells.

Vic,
I remember when you were trying to ID the caliber of your rifle, and the discussions of different "Nimrods". I don't remember finding more than one 9.3x82 Nimrod. I thought at the time that redrawing/swaging 9.3x74R cases(.465"head dia) to make 9.3x82R Nimrod (.427-.433" head dia) caused the confusion, by not removing the 74R headstamp. As always, however, I could be wrong. Maybe Axel will clear it up.
Mike

[kcordell]

The fiber wads are the easy part of BP shell reloading. All gauges are made Circlefly.com.

[sharps4590]

Mike...

Actually it's the other way around...unless by smaller you mean the number, as in 14 bore wads in 16 bore hulls. The brass hulls use the next larger bore size as their inside diameter is greater than plastic or paper hulls. I have boxes of 12 bore wads for my muzzleloading double, the hard card, lubed fiber and overshot cards, and I use them in my 16 bore hulls. They're tight but for no more shotshell than I actually shoot they work fine. I only load 10 rounds at a time. I don't own any proper brass hull reloading tools. I ground down a little screwdriver for my decapping pin and worked down a dowel rod for a barely snug fit in the hull to use as a follower for seating the wads. Other than a powder measure for drams, I do shoot black in them, and a one ounce shot cup that's all I use. Primitive but effective....but I'm a rather primitive sort anyway.

What confused me when trying to identify the rifle cartridge was the stamping by the proof house of the "74 1/2" for the case length. The bore was obviously 9.3 but that "1/2' kept things goofy in my head. Then when I made a chamber case and the head and case body above the rim were so far off from the 9.3 X 74R I didn't know what I had. No source I have or was aware of listed similar dimensions. I am sorry that I do not remember the gentleman who identified the cartridge. I do know it was one of our German members and he checked my posted dimensions against a cartridge in his collection which turned out to be the 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. I don't know if you remember the hoops I jumped through to get the cases to work. I started with 9.3 X 82 brass, used 9.3 X 74R dies to set the neck.....then I screwed up the barrels or they were about ready to come apart on their own....I'm still going with your opinion there!!!!! I borrowed the 38-55 dies from a friend to form the head and lower case body but had to buy my own set and grind out the threads so the case would fit through where the decapping pin goes. I think I figured out why we both thought the 38-55 dies would work as is. We measured the OD of the decapping pin holder....the ID of the threads is smaller and that's what had to be ground out. At any rate I have them all formed and loaded for when the barrels return. I talked to NECG last Friday and they mentioned maybe this week they would start on them. We'll see.

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
Of course you are right about the wads, I knew what was right, my fingers just didn't get the message. When we were checking for your rifle, I don't remember finding but one 9.3x82R Nimrod (I know yours was different). Different makes of dies are made differently and the expander button rod in my 38-55 dies screws into a "plug" that is threaded 1/2-20. A 9.3x72R Norm case clears my die. You adapted and overcame anyway. I'm glad your rifle will be back soon, the weather will soon be good enough to start working up the loads. If I haven't lost all my memory, I think it was Axel that IDed the cartridge.

kcordell,
I think there are a couple different 11.15x65R cartridges, one of which is easy to make brass for, and the other is not too hard. Can you make a chambercast or at least measure the head diameter and rim recess diameter, with a pair of calipers ? Also slug the bore, if you can. To answer your other question, I'm sure someone will sell you expensive ammo, but you will get a lot more satisfaction loading it yourself.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike...

Well kick me in the shins.....who would have thought different manufacturers would use different sized threads for their decapping pins? Obviously not I...hehe. The 38-55 dies I borrowed from Jack were Lee and at thirty some dollars that's what I bought to grind up. Those dies are HARD!!!! I guess the up side is I now have a die for belling the mouths of the 9.3 if I'm careful with it.

Vic

[kcordell]

Hi, for the 11.15x65, does this help identify the load?