Correct bullet diameter for 9,3 X 72R combo gun

[norsk]

I’m wondering about what ammo I should be shooting out of my 16 ga. X 9,3 X 72R combination gun. The previous owner shot factory Sellier & Bellot ammo, and I have also shot a few rounds through it with no problems. However, when my gunsmith did a chamber cast, the bore just ahead of the chamber measured .357 across the grooves and .347 across the lands. The proof markings indicate an 8,8mm bore, so that agrees. The gun has also been crown/E express proofed. He recommended not shooting the factory ammo with the .366 diameter bullets , and just reloading with .358 bullets. The factory ammo doesn’t show any sign of high pressure – the cases extract with no problem and can be reinserted easily. The primers are normal with no signs of flattening. The gun is very accurate with the factory ammo. The bullets are apparently just swaging down. I don’t have a problem with reloading for it, but I’m kind of confused about the whole issue.

[mike ford]

Norsk,
You can use the S&B ammo without problems, because the bullets are especially designed to be used in barrels of varying diameters. This was explained in a three part article on the 9.3x72R in WAIDMANNSHEIL( one of the GGCA publications),starting with #39 and ending with #41.Basically,the .366" diameter of the bullet is a "driving band" formed by a smaller diameter nose and a groove. This doesn't significantly drive the pressures up. Old WAIDMANNSHEILs are avaliable from the "home office". On the otherhand, you can handload with .358" bullets, just as your gunsmith reccommended, as well as a variety of other bullets. For what it's worth, one of my own 9.3x72Rs has a .358" barrel, and I use both factory ammo as well as handhoads, all with complete satisfaction. This same type bullet is used in factory ammunition of other cartridges that have varying diameter barrels, such as 8.15x46R. I hope you find this helpful and not too confusing.
Mike

[norsk]

Thanks Mike, that's what I thought was happening, but I didn't want to hurt the gun. I just had scope rings made for it!! I was able to get the back issues of WAIDMANNSHEIL that you referred to. I planned on reloading eventually, but I have 4 boxes of factory S&B ammo that I would like to use up first. I ordered a box of 200 grain .358 bullets, and was just planning on neck sizing the fired cases in my .38 Special sizing die. Would that work? Any advice on powder charges?

[mike ford]

Norsk,
It might work, the problem would be stopping at the correct place with the short dies. Before I got 9.3x72R dies, I used 9.3x74R dies w/o the expander installed and used a shop made expander/beller and then used the x74R seater and ironed the "bell" out with 9x57 die or 357 Herret die.Since I don't know what dies you have, I don't know what to suggest. In addition to 9,3x74R, you should be able to use 9.3x62/57, 35 Whelen, 9x57,358 Win, 35 Rem, etc. I used a opened up (dremel tool) 30-30 shell holder. If you load 38 spec., you likely have some pistol bullets to play with also w/o breaking the bank. Current S&B brass is loaded with boxer primers and is perfectly useable. I think you will have a good time with this rifle and you have plenty of time between now and next deer season to work up good loads. A sxs combination gun (BF) is a little tricky to sight in and work up loads for due to the rifle barrel heating up while the shotgun barrel stays cool. You just have to allow enough time to cool. Not a problem, I just carry another gun to shoot while I'm waiting, or let someone else shoot. I guess I'm interested in your project, let me know how it works out.
Mike

[C. Roger Bleile]

Mike,

Thanks for the information on the .358 bore 9.3x72R. I have one drilling in that cal. and slugged the bore to .358. I'm glad Norsk asked about it. Saved me the trouble.

Roger

[norsk]

Mike,
I don't have any .35 caliber rifle dies. I did a search on line and found out that CH4D makes 9.3 x 72R dies for $83. They list 3 different dies: 9.3 x 72, 9.3 x 72.360 and 9.3 x 72.367. I e-mailed to find out what the difference is. I assume it may be which bullet diameter is loaded. Do you have any experience with this brand of die? Also, I checked my shell holders and found that a 7.5 x 55 Swiss shell holder fits perfectly.

[sharps4590]

You're correct norsk, it has to do with which bullet dia. you're going to reload. From what you posted it appears you need the first set mentioned.

CH4D dies are good. The CH part is from the old C & H tool company and I have a couple sets of their dies from years ago, good stuff. Last summer I needed a set for a 10.5 X 47R and CH4D was the only game in town. They're a good game to play, I believe I can recommend them with no fears. Good product and good folks.

[ellenbr]

Sort of an off-shoot/tangent, we all throw around the name S&B, but it has been around for some time, since 1825 in Prague I believe with some French involvement. They have been at bullet design for some time. Also Norsk, have you posted any images of the marks on the tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Büchsemann]

I'll second the recommendation to buy your dies from CH4D. I have a bunch of Lee and RCBS dies as well but none are any better than the CH4D dies. Relatively recently I bought a set of 8X72R dies from CH4D to squeeze down a bunch 0f 9.3X72R NORMA cases, quite a time consuming project by the way. Anyway, the modified brass chambers perfectly. Dave Davison is a wealth of information and has been a lot of fun to talk to, nice guy. To me, Dave's personal service sets his firm apart from the others. He works late so when he returns your calls they're generally in the early evening.

[norsk]

Thanks for all the help, everyone!
I got an e-mail reply from Dave at CH4D. He said "Most cartridge cases would not be sized sufficiently in a 9.3x72R die to hold a .358" bullet." How about if I get the 9.3 x 72R dies from CH4D, and also a 35 Remington sizer/expander die. Then I could initially size the cases in the 9.3 x 72R sizer die, then run the case into the 35 Remington die to further reduce the case mouth and expand it to hold a .358 bullet, and then seat the bullet in the 9.3 x 72R seater die? Would that work? I agree CH makes good stuff. I'm still using the CH press I bought 40 years ago.

[norsk]

Here is a picture of the barrel markings.

[mike ford]

Norsk,
I mentioned the other die possibilites as substitutes for 9.3x72R. Naturally correct dies are always best.While I use others, CH4D dies are great,like the others said. Since your rifle chambers factory ammo, it will be the Norm. version case and not the "D" version. I address the small bullet problem by removing the expander from the sizing die and using a 357 expander in an extra "M" die.This makes a three die set from the two die RCBS dies I use. Sizing dies usually size the cases more than necessary and the expander opens them back up to the desired dia. In my case,this difference is enough to use 358 bullets. I use larger cast bullets,so I don't have any problem with this system. If you do, your idea of using 35 Rem (or any other 35 cal.) die will work fine. BTW, I use this same trick to load for my 8x72R (also 8x57IR) using 8x57 dies. All this is what makes it fun. Be sure to use cast bullets, also.
Mike

[norsk]

Well, I ordered a set of 9,3 x 72R dies from CH4D today. However, I was told that seems to be a popular die recently, and they are out of stock on finished dies!! Some of you other guys must have beat me to them!! But, I got on a backorder list and should have them in 8 to 10 weeks. That should still be OK, because it will take that long for the snow to melt up here in Norway's North American colony, and the local gun range should be warm and dry by then. I'll keep everyone that's interested updated on my reloading results then.

[sharps4590]

norsk, I am certainly interested! I can't imagine you won't be satisfied with the dies.

Vic

[norsk]

I got my new CH4D dies, so I have been working on some reloads. I've been using Hornady .358 dia 200 gr RN bullets, IMR 3031 powder, and CCI large rifle primers. I also mounted an old steel tube Weaver K2.5 in the new rings on the gun. First, I removed the expander/decapper plug from the resizing die. I sized a case, and without expanding, it would snuggly hold a .358 bullet. For my first load, I pulled the bullets from some S&B factory ammo, sized the cases, put the factory powder back in, and seated the Hornady bullets up to the cannerule, but did not crimp the bullet. This allowed about .250 inch depth of bullet in the case. This load shot a 1-1/8 3 shot group at 50 yards. Next, I sized some fired cases, put in 40-ish grains of 3031 and topped it with the Hornady bullet. I also put a thin cardboard wad on top of the powder to hold the powder in the rear of the case. Best 3 shot group with this load was 3/4 inch at 50 yards. I allowed the barrel to cool about 5 minutes between shots to eliminate stringing. Looks like I found a good load right away! I was at a gun show on Friday and found a box of Sierra Gameking .358 200 gr RN bullets. On these bullets, the cannerule is higher on the jacket, which will allow about .310 inch of bullet depth in the case. I haven't loaded any of these yet, but will post when I do.