Post war J. P. Sauer und Sohn model #?

[C. Roger Bleile]

Below are some images of my post war J. P. Sauer 12 gauge SxS SLE made in Suhl in 1951. As soon as I bought it, I bought Jim Cate's Sauer book to look up information but didn't know the book only covers pre WWII guns. I checked Buxton's and all my old catalogs and old Gun Digests with no luck.

About two years ago, when I was in Suhl, I showed Hendrick some poor images on my phone. He thought it was a model 16. Hopefully, these new images will help our experts here give me a definative answer as to the model # and any other information known.

The gun was obviously made for export to an English speaking country. My understanding (possibly misunderstanding) is that these guns were made from available pre WWII J.P.Sauer parts by the original craftsmen who were stuck behind the iron curtain while simultaneously, the J.P. Sauer name was sold to the people making different guns under the Sauer name in Eckernförde.

Thanks for anything you gentlemen can add to my understanding of this gun.

Roger

[C. Roger Bleile]

More images of the Sauer.

[Jim Cate]

Hi Roger! Your serial number (of the beautiful Sauer shotgun), 391297, proofed 6/51, is chronologically correct with other postwar Sauers I have in my database. Yes, it was made in Suhl under the auspices of a Soviet/communist government. Many of the other postwar Sauers I have in my database, beginning in 1947 (there may have been earlier but I don't have any) no doubt were made of prewar parts...and possibly pre-1945 barrels. The workmanship is quite nice, but I have noticed the engraving and wood generally are not what you would expect to find on a Sauer sidelock Model 16 made before 1945. I certainly do not have anything really negative to say about any postwar Sauer. My primary interest in pre-1945 Sauers is quite simple: they were made by the original company! It is my understanding that the "new" Sauer facilities that were located in Eckernforde were completed in 1953. That might help others with a time-line. Yes, the "peoples' factory" (Sauer & Sohn) did not abide by any patents or copyrights that any of the former gun companies in Suhl had produced. It was an interesting time-period in Suhl for producing new guns. Lastly, I do have a couple of original employees' personel cards, complete with photos, which show they worked pre-45 for Sauer and the post-45 Ernst Thalmann (Sauer) company. Many of the original employees eventually made it to West Germany and tried to find jobs in the firearms industries there. Regards, Jim

[ellenbr]

My wild guess is that the modell nr. is hiding right there in plain sight on the aft lug: 47S. Who's 47S, I cannot say.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

As an interesting aside, in a story about my Sauer BF, in the upcomming WAIDMANNSHEIL, I talk about two of the workmen that went "west" after the war and worked on the BF for me.
Mike

[C. Roger Bleile]

I was hoping that Raimey or someone might be able to interpret that profusion of stamps on the aft lug and the A between the lugs. From Jim's post I can't quite understand if he is agreeing that the gun is a model 16 or not. I also wondered if the 47 S indicated a model number. Is there such a thing as a model 47S J.P.Sauer?

I hope that Hendrick eventually sees this thread so that he can see these better pictures than the ones I showed him in Germany.

[hendrik]

Hello Roger, greetings from germany!!
#Yes this is a early modell 47 S.
I will send pictures from the catalog later....
Greetings hendrik

[C. Roger Bleile]

Thanks so much Hendrik! That is very useful information for me.

Grüß,
Roger

[hendrik]

Hi Roger,
can i meet you on the IWA Exebition in Nuremberg?
Greetings Hendrik

[C. Roger Bleile]

Hendrik,

Unfortunately, I won't be at IWA this year.

Roger

[hendrik]

Hello Roger, its shame..

Greetings Hendrik

[OrenT]

I was given a J.P. Sauer & Sohn SxS 16 ga that is missing the cockers, lock springs and some of the receiver screws. Could one of you gentlemen recommend where I might purchase parts?

[mike ford]

OrenT,
Because the "cockers" will likely have to be fabricated, lock springs "fit up", and screws will have to be fit/"clocked",and engraved; I suggest the same thing I advised for your Daley drilling on the other thread. Any of these firms will do a fine job for you.
Mike

[Jim Cate]

Hi Guys! I still don't know what the post-war Model 16s were DEFINITELY referred to as... not that it makes any difference to me. Axel probably knows! What model is it, Axel? I, like other members of Germany, think of it as a Model 16....made under communist authorities...Still, all in all, quite a beautiful Sauer!!

[Axel E]

During the Soviet occupation shotgun production in Suhl was cranked up to high gear, more shotguns made in Suhl than ever before. Shotguns delivered to the USSR: In 1945 = 1593, 1946 = 21739, 1948 = 39961, a large part made by the former Sauer & Sohn factory. So the "left over pre-war parts" are pure legend. Until 1950 all the Suhl production was sent to the USSR as reparations. The Soviets in turn reexported many Suhl made guns world wide.
After the Sauer family was officially dispossessed in 1947, the "Sauer & Sohn, Suhl" company officially ceased to exist in 1949, the factory being incorporated into the "VEB Ernst Thaelmann Werke" as "Werk II". But the ETW continued to use the prestigious name at least until 1960 for export to other countries except West Germany, where the trademark name was still owned by the Sauer family. Here, in the federal republic, the same guns were sold marked "Simson", "Fortuna" or "Merkel".
So attaching a definite Sauer & Sohn model number to any of these 1950s "S&S" marked guns is in vain. as you may find the same gun, made at the same factory by the same men, with completely different markings.
I recommend reading the german language books by H.J. Fritze: "Suhl - Heimat der Büchsenmacher" and P.Arfmann & R. Kallmeier: "J.P. Sauer & Sohn" on the history of the companies and postwar Suhl gunmaking.