German Percussion 14 Gauge - WEBER & SCHULTHEIS, Frankfert

[kcordell]

Hi,

Does anyone have knowledge of this company? I acquired this 14GA sxs a while ago and have used it, with of course, black powder FF for dove, quail and pheasant. Its a great gun and in fine shape. I cant find any information on the maker though. Any thoughts are certainly appreciated.

[ellenbr]

I assume you mean Frankfurt? Seems that both master gunsmiths expired by 1863 and the wife/widow of Iohann Schultheiß got in some sort of issue or courtcase centered around the issue of the wife of a master gunsmith continuing the business after the master gunsmith had expired. It would appear that she had initialed control of the firm before the code came into place and there was some tit for tat and she may have been grandfathered. Not sure of the outcome but the firm was sourced by one of the Prusisan royal courts.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Looks like she won at the appellate level(January 1st, 1863) due to the fact that the concern wasn't properly notified of the change in the Commercial Code and that there was some restriction for firms have 30 mechanics or more. I am curious if post January 1st, 1863 if she used the term Witwe. Any marks or any British stamps?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

In 1841 with some of their wares they note that they source Liege for their pattern welded tubes. Seems Jakob/Jacob Weber & Iohannes Schultheiß(Schulteis) of Frankfurt am Main merged their businesses in 1840 under one roof and the concern was active from 1840/1841 - 1880 with the widow of Iohann Schultheiß taking the reins of the firm by 1863. Their fab shop was at Barfüssergasse while their retail outlet, at least in the 1870s, was at Schönen Aussicht 11.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Lifted Trade Label

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Whenever the appeals date, Wlttwe Anna Maria Charlotte Schultheiß was registered as the owner of the sporting weapons factory Weber und Schultheiß as well as the retail outlet/shop on March 23rd, 1864.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[kcordell]

Wow Raimey, your information is sincerely impressive. Many thanks for the great information. So are you thinking the manufacture date is somewhere in the 1850s?

[ellenbr]

For some reason, the lock profile & the side tube reinforcement makes me think British. Can you elaborate on any marks before I make a stab at the date?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[kcordell]

Sure can as soon as I get home. Now what do you mean British?

[ellenbr]

Either British sourced or some British sourced components. But the marks, if any, will prove it out.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[sharps4590]

I too think it looks British, except for possibly the high fences.

[ellenbr]

Weber und Schultheiß Büchsenmacher in Frankfurt am Main took honorable mention for their simple wares at the 1851 Great Exhibition in London along side Carl August Fischer of Lübeck, who took a higher prize. Then they were awarded the same at the 1854 German Industrial Exhibition in München.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Sporting weapons exist from the mid 19th century with A.V.(Anton Vincenz) Lebeda Prag on the locks and Weber und Schultheiß atop the tubes. I guess it could be said that cross sourcing was possible, but the highest probability is that Weber und Schultheiß Büchsenmacher in Frankfurt am Main sourced A.V. Lebeda Prag for some of their wares.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[kcordell]

I checked and there are no proofs on the gun except the Leige proof in a circle on the bottom of the barrel and 14 on each barrel as its a 14 gauge. Should I be looking anywhere specifically?

Also has Weber und Schultheiß, Frankfurt on top of barrel rib.

[ellenbr]

Touchmarks would either be on the underside of the tubes & plugs as well as on the frame. Which Liege mark is the encircled one you mention, the ELG in an oval? Right off I can't remember a time when the Belgian proofhouses used a bore designation as they used mm, unless it was pre-1853. Is the intertwined provisional mark of an EL present or any inspector's marks? 14mm would be in the 24 bore range. What does it measure now, 17mm?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse