Help with identification of 16 guage SxS

[Alan]

Hello all, I am new to owning German made shotguns and could use the expertise of those on this site to assist me with identification of the manufacturer as well as an approximate insurance value for this shotgun. As near as I can tell it was proofed in Dec 1924 and I am assuming the serial number of 1 found on the water table either means this was the first gun made or possibly the only gun made by whoever manufactured it. Thank you for your anticipated assistance. Alan

[Alan]

Here are the additonal photos that didn't upload on the origional post

[hendrik]

Hello Alan,

this is a very nice gun.

But the pictures are not sharp.
I can´t see the details from the stamps and from the engraving.
I see only: the gun is proofed in Zella- Mehlis.

Please make better sharper pictures in the outside( better light)

Greetings hendrik

[Alan]

My appologies as I am not a very good picture taker. Please see the following additional photos hopefully, they are more clear than the first set. The underside of the barrels are stamped Flusstahl Kruppen Essen along with what looks to be double struck letters KB or possibly VKP. You can see this right behind the forearm lock on the underside of the barrels.

As mentioned earlier, I am new to German made shotguns. I just purchased this 16 guage as well as a BSW-Suhl SxS 12 guage proofed in 1939 and know very little about either of them.

Thank you for all your assistance


Alan

[ellenbr]

Made in either Zella Sankt Blasii or Mehlis(at the time Z-M). Can you snap an image of the marks from the forend hanger to the flats thru a glass or in focus? And maybe give a run-down or what you think them to be.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Forgot to note that with the touchmark of Sl near the flats, more than likely the Krupp Fluid Steel tube were sourced from Liege.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[C. Roger Bleile]

Alan,

You are in the right place to learn about German sporting guns. There is so much to know and hardly anyone knows everything because of the loss of records and personnel due to the world wars.

For your information, Hendrik who posted above is one of the most knowledgable experts on the subject of German guns and one of the world's best gun engravers. There are others here who have encyclopedic knowledge of German guns.

My knowledge is basic but I can add a couple of pieces of information for you. Your pictures are still too blurry but from what I can make out this is what I see:
* The 16 in a circle indicates the nominal gauge of the gun and 65 mm (2 9/16") chamber length. If the gun was chambered for 2 3/4" shells there would be a the number 70 next to the circle.
* The 16/1 is the actual bore of the gun (.669) according to the proofhouse chart. The service load is for 28.3 grams (1.02 ounces) of shot.
* The number 1224 is the proof date, December 1924, as you correctly surmised.
* The number 477, I believe is the proofhouse ledger number. I'm not positive of this however.
* The crowned W indicates that the barrel so stamped is choke bored.
* The crowned S indicates a barrel for shot.
* The crowned U is the definitive final proof.
* Flusstahl Krupp Essen indicates fluid steel made at the Krupp works in Essen, Germany. A basic level of gunbarrel steel.
* There are some proofmarks on the sides of the barrels that I can't make out.
* I don't know about the number 1. It could be the serial number.

I asume there is no maker's name on the rib. There are many sporting guns that were made in Suhl or Zella Mehlis with no name. These are commonly, and inaacuraely, known in the gun trade as "guild guns." They are not inferior in any way but the lack of a maker's name reduces their monetary value. Some of the experts here can make an informed guess as to who made such guns based on their features and punch marks. If you can provide sharply focused pictures of all the gun's markings, I'm sure others on this forum can tell you more. Also if you can make sharper pictures of the gun's engraving, Hendrik may be able to tell you who engraved it.

Regards,
Roger

[Alan]

Thank you everyone for all your assistance. I will attempt to rub some chalk on all of the markings and repost some additional photos in the morning. Weather permitting my plan is to take the gun out and try to shoot the 1st Pheasant of the year over my 9 month old Deutsch Kurzharr pup.


Alan

[Alan]

Here are some additional photos - I have attempted to fill all markings and engravings with chalk so that maybe the photos are clearer. If this attempt does not work then I will have to see if I can find someone with a better digital camera or that is more talented than I am with using one