T & S arrived. Chamber cast.

[sharps4590]

Finally. Eight days from Virginia to Missouri. It must have been packed on one of the older mules.

I gave it a lick and a promise clean up and then made a chamber cast. It is 9.3 X 74R except for two dimensions I have a question about. Barnes gives the head diameter as .465 and this one mics .432. The other is the rim diameter. Again Barnes; he is at
.524 and mine mics .500. I don't believe I need to be concerned about the rim diameter, but is .033 too much at the head? Especially if I neck size only after first firing of the brass?

The other question is the bullet weight. It is definitely proofed for a 13 gram. bullet. My thought is to start off with the approx. 200 gr. bullet for the 9.3 X 72R. Thoughts, opinions, advice?

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
You don't have a 9.3x74R, with the dimensions you reported. Rather, you have a 9.3x72R or a longer T&S variant based on the smaller case. When you measure a chamber (or chambercast) you find larger diameters than if you measure tha cartridge case.The chamber has to be a few "thousanths" larger, or the cartridge won't chamber. You didn't give the length,except to say the other dimensions are the same as 9.3x74R. If it were mine, I would just use 9.3x72R brass, which is not enough too short to cause a problem(even if chamber is 75mm). You can seat the bullet "out" to take up some of the bullet jump. Of course, you can shorten 9.3X82R brass, but that seems like a waste when you don't ever know when you will need 82mm brass for some other rifle. Since this is a 9.3x72R class rifle, those bullets would be appropiate. It is necessary to find the groove diameter of the barrel. I would mostly use cast bullets, but it's not my rifle. I hope this helps more than it confuses.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Hey Mike...

Whew..I was hoping for something from you, thanks. The second I read about the cast being larger I thought, "idiot, you knew that". Obviously I forgot in my excitement.

Ok...here's what I have. Rim, .500,
Head, .432,
There is a definite, slight shoulder and it is .410,
Neck is .392,
Length is as dead on 2.93 as it can be.

When I made the chamber cast I included about 3 inches of the bore and the groove dia. there is .363. I haven't checked the twist yet. I can't remember which mark is for copper and cast bullets. I believe it is marked KmG, (?).

I always intended to shoot cast in it...wanting about 1800-2000 fps. and hoping it would shoot to the sights. I'm wondering, now, if this is a T & S proprietary round based on the 9.3 X 80R or 82R shortened and a slight shoulder added? Not that it matters what it is, I can make it go bang now. From comparing dimensions I'm thinking 9.3 X 74R dies are the choice? I'm also guessing 9.3 X 72R data is what to use? None of my reloading manuals have that data, where may it be acquired?

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
With the 13gram KmG marking, a heavy bullet may not stabilize, but something around 200 gr.should be OK(heavier may be ok after trial). Sizing dia target should be .365, but if you have other dies, they may be ok also. If the bullet will fit into a fired/unsized case, it will be safe. You should be able to use 9.3x74R dies if you either have some or intend to buy some anyway. I loaded a lot of 9.3x72R with 9.3x74R dies by removing the expander button, but your bullets will be closer to 9.3x74R bullets( you may have to remove yours for jacketed .363 bullets). You could also use 9.3x62 or 57 dies by setting the above the shell holder.You are correct that you should use 9.3x72R data adjusted to "follow the sights". When I wrote the article on loading the 9.3x72R , I included data, but it was taken out before printing. If you search the internet in handloading or cast bullet (Cast Boolits) sites, you will find data. I hope this helps.
Mike

[Axel E]

Sorry, I missed most of the discussion! Yes, there was a 9.3x75R Nimrod (tm of Thieme & Schlegelmilch) cartridge also. Found some cases and bullets in a drawer once, headstamped *9,3x75*NIMROD . Will post photos and dimensions soon.

[sharps4590]

Mr. Mike...

Thank you again! You led me right where my head was leaning. As old fashioned as I am about stuff the first loads will be black powder and we'll see where they print in relation to the sights. As it's nitro proofed I won't be afraid to duplex if more speed is necessary. (Not that it ever bothered me before to lightly duplex a BP cartridge rifle) Accurate Molds has a 196 gr. bullet for the 72R and I'll order it to cast 1-25 alloy at .365. I have no sizing dies remotely close to that so I'll order the first for .365. If they bullets mic out close I'll try them unsized first and see where that goes. I found a set of RCBS 9.3 X 74R dies for not too bad a price, new, have the brass and shell holder found and was hoping for confirmaiton from on my thoughts before ordering. They will be on the way tomorrow. If I can't make the BP work I will swallow my pride and prejudice and revert back to smokeless

Hey Axel...

I would be most grateful. This T & S is proofed 8,7 X 74 1/2 on the barrel. Seems I remember a discussion on this particular chambering on another site and there was question as to whether it existed...I think? Might I have purchased a "missing link"?

Vic

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
Be sure to let us know how it works out.
Axel,
I will be glad for the photos also, can you put a 9.3x72R alongside for comparison?
Mike

[sharps4590]

Welp, everything is ordered, biggest hold up will be the mold. Tom is 4 weeks out....darn my bad luck but I'm glad he's busy.

Vic

[Axel E]

Here is a photo of the 9.3x75R *NIMROD* alongside a DWM mfg 9.3x72R N. The few cases I found had the bullets pulled as someone needed the powder, probably in the post-WW2 years. So the necks are a bit damaged, but there is a very slight bottleneck visible about 2.5" forward of the rim.

Dimensions (for comparing same of a recent RWS 9.3x72R N):
Case length: 2.944" (2.831) // rim: .479" (.483) // base: .428 (.424) // shoulder: .394 (same distance from rim .381)
The peculiar copper jacketed multi-banded 180 grs bullets that came with the cases show these diameters, base to ogive: .364, .346, .366, .347, .351, .348 I have seen the same bullets in some very old RWS 9.3x82R Nimrod loads.
According to Dixon the cartridge was not yet found in any catalog and made only from about 1905 to 1910. IMHO T&S designed this proprietary case as a smokeless load duplicating the popular bp ballistics, of the other humble 9.3s before smokeless loads were developed for the popular numbers, making sure that these Nitro loads would not fit into any blackpowder chamber.
IMHO this cartridge fit the description of your chamber quite well.
BTW another "missing link" between the 9.3x72R N and the 9.3x74R is the 9.3x72R Sauer & Sohn, a blackpowder bottlenecked case of the same dimensions, only with a neck 2mm shorter and a slightly thinner rim.

[Axel E]

This T & S is proofed 8,7 X 74 1/2 on the barrel. Vic

The 8.7 mm marking of the pre-1940 proofmarks indicates the bore or land diameter at the time of proof, not the groove or bullet one. As it is given in mm instead of the older gauge numbers, it shows that the gun was proofed in Suhl after April1,1912

[mike ford]

Axel,
My information,such as it is, is that the 9.3x72R Sauer&Sohn has a head diameter of .468-.473",instead of .427-.433". Is this not true? This is important for an article I am writing about a S&S BF I used for years ( did you mean "same dimensions" as 9.3x75R Nimrod or 9.3x74R ?).
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, sorry for my unprecise words! Of course, I meant 9.3x74R. The 9.3x72R Sauer & Sohn number has the same base diameter (listed even larger by Dixon, 12.0 instead 11.9 mm of the x74), a slightly thinner rim. Don't have a case on hand. I even know a man who shot for years 9.3x74R factory loads through his old S&S Büchsflinte. As he complained about recoil and asked me what to do about that issue, I discovered that his rifle was a x72R S&S! They made some pretty strong guns then. He had subsequently his Rifle rechambered to x74 and reprooved.

[sharps4590]

Axel..

I can't thank you enough, I'm grateful. I agree, I believe mine is chambered to this cartridge. It seems redundant but your explanation gives the reason.

I knew that was the bore dia. Groove dia. on mine is .363. The SN on the firearm, if that's what it can be called, is 37584 on the standing breech and is duplicated on the barrels.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks a lot, I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one that used one as a 9.3x74R. When I finally figured it out, I just trimmed the 74mm cases to 72mm and used 9.3x74R dies to load for it. I suspect that a lot more than two have been used with 9.3x74R. Mine is only marked 8.9 without case length but has proof load, so I guess its pre 1912. I PMed Jim Cates the serial #,but haven't heard back from him with a closer date.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I would have used 9.3 X 74R in this T & S had it not been for the 13 gram bullet weight stamped on the barrel. After looking at so many 74R loads, the cartridge just didn't seem right to me. Then the chamber cast with the so much smaller cartridge base really had me questioning the chambering. Thank heavens for this site and you guys!!!

Vic