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**sharps4590** · 10-02-2012, 05:35 PM

Hey Matt!

First of all welcome to the board! I'm pleased you saved the old double from a dreary, inactive existance, chose not to refinish it and have decided to put it to work. That's what they were made for, and, it's only original once. There is a satisfaction that comes from using and taking game with fine old pieces that can achieved in no other way.

I will have to leave the history and value of the piece to the fine gentlemen on this board who are incredibly knowledgeable. I can't tell you what the chokes are but I'm pretty sure the .2 and .8 are choke values...but ignore that if others tell you different. I believe the "non pour balle" means not for round balls or slugs...but again, ingore that if you're told otherwise on this board. You stated the barrels had no cracks and I assume no delaminations from barrels to ribs. Are the barrels tight to the face? Not being real familiar with proof marks and what you posted I'm going to go out on a limb....and hopefully not cut it off behind me....and say it is not Nitro proofed. You should check the chambers to see what length they are. If not altered they're either 2 1/2 or 2 9/16. This isn't a problem nor is not being Nitro proofed. There are nitro for black loads out there but I'm ignorant of them for a shotgun so will leave that discussion to others. I would unhesitatingly use Ffg black powder and the old fashioned over powder card, cushion wad, shot load and over shot card in brass hulls. All of which are available from Buffalo Arms in Sand Point Idaho and other places. You don't need any more than a primer punch and a follower, (rammer), to load them and some means to insert the primer. The brass hulls use large pistol primers and I have a piece of granite countertop I use for a base, a dowel and a hammer to set the primers. For my old combination gun my black powder charge is 65 grs. Ffg and one ounce of shot. I tried 1 1/8 oz. and it DID NOT like it. The overshot card needs to fit tight and you can glue it in with Duco cement. Or you can go through the convolutions and use water glass for the over shot card to be completely authentic. Black powder loads give up precious little, if any, in performance to nitro loads in the shorter hulls and in a breech loader black is as easy to clean as nitro, maybe easier. If you don't want to use brass hulls, 2 3/4 plastic hulls can be used by cutting them back, how much I don't know, and putting a roll crimp over an overshot card. A roll crimper for plastic hulls is available from several places and can be used in a battery drill or drill press. They make a nice crimp.

The above is by no means the only way to put the old piece back into service, just the method I would use. One thing is for certain, if you want to know virtually anything about your German double, you are in the right place. Good luck and have fun with it

Vic

I think it is a nice looking old piece and I particularly find the long lever interesting.

**C. Roger Bleile** · 10-02-2012, 06:54 PM

Matt,

First of all, as an engraver, I can tell you that your gun has very nice engraving. The style is called "black leaf" but is known in German speaking countries as "laubgravure or laubeornament."

Despite the German name on the gun, it was made in Belgium as indicated by the ELG over a star in an oval proofmark. The M with a star above is a Liege proofhouse inspectors mark that was used after 1877 so that is the earliest year it could have been made. The "non pour balle" indicates barrels proofed for shot only as Vic correctly indicated above.

As for Johann Jakob Reeb, I am familiar with the name but there are others who frequent this forum who are far more knowledgable about that particular name. I can tell you though that many guns that were sold in Germany bear the name of the retailer rather than the actual maker. In some cases a gun shop may have made some of their own guns and sourced others elsewhere including Liege, Belgium.

From what I can see in your pictures the gun looks to be in pretty good condition and may need only a good cleaning to remove congealed grease, oil, and surface rust. If that is the case there is no reason to do any refinishing. From what I can see I would be happy to have it in my collection because of the engraving and because I like hammer guns. It is hard to place a value on a gun like yours without first hand inspection. A small crack in the wood, minor rib seperation, loose on the face or a multitude of other barely noticable problems can drastically effect the value. In general, Belgian guns of the vintage and type such as yours do not have high value, particularly in today's economy.

I'd like to ask how you know it was made in 1890 as that is not apparent from the proof marks you listed?

Regards,
Roger
http://www.engravingglossary.com/

**mike ford** · 10-02-2012, 07:15 PM

Matt,
Your gun has a German name,true enough, but it seemed to have been proofed in Belgium( re : "E over LG with a star under in a circle"). The "non pour balle" means the gun is choked, this is why it was not for bore diameter solid bullets ( normal shotgun slugs can be used in correct length shells).To answer what can you can do with it, you can hunt with it. To get a good assessment of your gun, photos will be required. I understand what you mean about blured photos,but maybe a friend can help. If it were my gun, I would be pretty excited about this gun. It seems to be a nice old gun, needing only a limited amount of work( all I can see from the photos is replacement of the horn inset in the forearm). IMO you should resist any temptation to reblue the barrels. As an afterthought, when you do post photos of the proof marks, I don't think photo bucket is the best way.I'm not qualified with either computers or photos, but maybe someone else will help you.
Mike

**Matt Tauber** · 10-03-2012, 03:45 AM

Thank you all for the great information!
Sharps,thanks so much for the load data, sounds like zero problem in working up some rounds. I'll most likely use brass because,well, it's just so darn cool!
Roger, i DO NOT know it is 1890, that was just my best guess from a proof table i found on the internet. That chart had proofs that stated they started using in 1897,which my gun does not have,but did have the "M" with star,so.....I guessed.
Mike"you can hunt with it." YES !!!! to cool! My Llewellin setters are going nuts already! I will try to get my hands on a better camera this weekend.
The barrels lock up tight to the receiver, no rib separation. the only repair i have to do that i can find, is(i think this is the right term)the "Y" spring for the lever. i've made flat springs before for other guns, and believe i can handle that no problem,may even have the correct stock on hand....
Thanks again, i am getting really excited over this,.......beside, she looks so classy up there next to my AR, ak47, and Mossbergs!

**Axel E** · 10-03-2012, 06:54 PM

The shop of J.J. Reeb, Münsterplatz 17a, Bonn, existed from 1870 to (at least) WW2, managede by several generations of the family. So this does not help dating your gun. But there is another hint: Have a close look at the Liege proofmark, the oval with the letters ELG and star inside. In 1893 the proofhouse added a small crown to the top of the oval, so no crown = pre-1893, crown on top = post-1893. As you mention no smokeless proof stamp, a small lion rampant with either the letters EC, SCH or PV underneath, the gun was proofed for black powder only. The barrels are likely of fine scroll pattern damascus, obliterated on the outside by wear, rust and gunk. Look at the areas protected by the foreend. If a pattern shows there, careful rebrowning by a man who knows the process and the right solution will bring those pieces of a lost art back to their former glory. I have myself done more than a dozen for collector friends, using a solution availble here in Germany. The procedure is rather simple, requiring no more equipment than a degreasing agent like acetone, two wooden dowels, fine abrasive paper to brigten the barrels, a handfull of fine steel wool, a bathtub, elbow grease, time and some clear laquer or wax. No machine tools, polishing wheels or hot acid baths!

**mike ford** · 10-03-2012, 07:11 PM

Matt,
With regard to the top lever spring, if you have one leaf and part of the other,you may be able to "jam" a piece of leaf spring into the "V" and make it work. I have been using one like this for 15 years. If it's broken in the "V", this won't work and you are back to making or finding a spring( many turn-of-the century "hardware store guns" were made in Belgium and used similar springs).
Mike

**sharps4590** · 10-04-2012, 12:42 PM

Hey Matt...

I sent you a PM with a little more info on the above mentioned BP load.

Vic

**Matt Tauber** · 10-04-2012, 02:17 PM

Wow, this is a GREAT forum! Thank you all so much.
No crown in the oval,and no smokeless proof mark either. One thing confusing me is the damascus pattern is clear on the barrels,but NOT under the foreend. Is the such a thing as a fake damascus pattern for looks? My old eyes are not what they used to be, but there is no pattern under there and it is blue,not brown. I've seen a few(very few) browned guns before, and i don't believe this was one. That being said, she has been well used for sure,possibly been redone years ago?
My brother deals in antique hunting/sporting collectables and has contacted a collector about 75 miles from here,we will be taking a road trip this weekend to hopefully learn more.
I'd love to replace the missing insert on the foreend, any suggestions on a place to start?
There is also a local gun show this weekend, much to my wife's dismay, my shopping/wish list has grown......
Thanks again,
Matt

**mike ford** · 10-04-2012, 03:33 PM

Matt,
There were some fake damascus pattern barrels made, but my impression is that yours is not fake.Yours may very well may have been "blued",which has worn off where exposed. The "Browning" process Axel described is very similar to rust bluing used today (the main difference is the "blued" barrels are boiled between coats, and the "browned" ones not),so both were used.Without knowing where you live, it is hard to recommend someone to replace the horn inset in the forearm.In general, however, you couldn't go wrong by using any of the people advertising in WAIDMANNSHEIL.
Mike

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Johann Jakob Reeb 1890's side by side shotgun, what CAN i do with it?

Johann Jakob Reeb 1890's side by side shotgun, what CAN i do with it?

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