Thieme & Schlegelmilch = Meffert?

[sharps4590]

The receiver of this T & S drilling bears a remarkable likeness to my Meffert. Is that likely or a possibility?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=304399189

[mike ford]

Vic,
Anything is possible because both of them had different models, but my impression is they are not the same. It is known that manufacturers provided actions and barrels to the trade, but I don't think this is one. Of course,this is subject to correction by others, more knowlegeable than I.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, from what I'm reading, if I understand you, is that T & S were builders as well as retailers?

And, how is the "milch" in Schlegelmilch pronounced, as in "milk", like it looks or "sch" as in....Schaefferkoetter ?

[mike ford]

Vic,
My friend Fred, that worked in Walter Grass' shop, never corrected me when I said "milk". Axel or Raimey may have better info, but my impression is they were also builders. They had some pretty unusual stuff.
Mike

[Doug Kellermann]

The receiver of this T & S drilling bears a remarkable likeness to my Meffert. Is that likely or a possibility?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=304399189

Hey Vic

Could you post some pictures of your Meffert? I am curious to see the similarities.

thanks

Doug

[sharps4590]

Hey Doug..

I have only two pictures but I'll post them. Obvoiusly my Meffert has the Duraloy receiver but I was thinking about the shape of the receiver. I may have spoken out of turn after comparing the two. It would have been better said that they share similarities instead of "a remarkable likeness". The scalloped receiver always catches my eye. I'm learning!!

[Axel E]

Both drilling show only the similarities of 1930s standard grade drillings. Thieme & Schlegelmilch = Nimrod were real gunmakers. They designed likely the best lockworks, apart from several cartridges. But most Suhl gunmakers, except the biggest, if standard grade guns were ordered, sometimes farmed out work to outworkers like action filers, stockers or engravers. All depended on a few specialized barrelmakers like the Kelbers anyhow. Most of them bought their rough action forgings from the Schilling forge. All apprentices were trained to the same standards, so similarities on standard products were inevitable.

[C. Roger Bleile]

...how is the "milch" in Schlegelmilch pronounced, as in "milk", like it looks or "sch" as in....Schaefferkoetter ?

Vic,

I am not fluent in German but I find the pronunciation function of Google Translate pretty good in the absence of a native German speaker. Try this link and click on the little speaker icon on the German side. http://translate.google.com/#de/en/T...0SCHLEGELMILCH

ps: I also have an Immanual Meffert Dural drilling in 16x16x8x57IR. Mine has a sort of bronze colored finish on the aluminum. What is your rifle bbl chambered in?

Regards,
Roger

[sharps4590]

Thank you Axel. I learn something every time I check in here.

Thanks for the tip Roger! I will go there and listen....and hopefully learn!

I'm going to show my lack of knowledge again. Yours is an "Immanual" Meffert and mine is an "Inman" Meffert. Same person, brothers, Father/Son, no relation or connection? I was told mine is from 1936 but after becoming a part of this group, almost everything I thought I knew is suspect. It is chambered in 7 X 57R, that is a fact. I don't recall noticing that mine was ever a different color. Your sounds interesting, pics?

Vic

[C. Roger Bleile]

Vic,

The guns are usually marked Imman. Meffert but sometimes there is no period after Imman or you can't see it. Nevertheless the full name is Immanuel Meffert. Note I mistyped the name as Immanual rather than Immanuel above.

I'm not sure about the finish on the Dural frame. Yours could have had the bronze color removed or worn off or maybe they were originally sold both ways. There are folks on this forum much more knowledgable about Meffert than I. My gun was made in 1927 so they could have changed the finish in nine years. Is your gun engraved "Hubertus" on the bottom of the action as mine is?

I don't have pics of my Hubertus as it's not engraved so I never thought of taking pics.

Regards,
Roger

[Doug Kellermann]

Hey Vic and Roger,

My meffert drllings both have a pop up front sight, the Black Chrome (same as Mr. Himmels) is just steel the Fancy grade Meffert has a pearl.

[Axel E]

Georg Immanuel Meffert founded the company in 1839 at Steinweg 17, Suhl. The name of the company remained "Immanuel Meffert" during it's existence to 1945. Most often it was conveniently shortened to "Imman. Meffert", sometimes for lack of space even to "I. Meffert". Tademarks were "Hubertus", "Protektor" (pistols), "Wotan", "Titan" and "Oberland". Two sons, Justin and Richard Meffert, took over before 1900. Georg Immanuel passed away July 25, 1910. The family continued for two more generations with Bruno, Paul, Georg and Erich Meffert. Not every gun signed "Meffert" came from the "Imman. Meffert" shops, as there were several other, unrelated Mefferts active in the Suhl area, even a retailer "Max Meffert" in Berlin.
During the late 1920s Justin Meffert started to experiment using a hard aluminum alloy, bought in from the "Dürener Metallwerk AG", for drilling receivers. Many orders came in, but complaints followed soon: the pure Duraluminum surfaces were prone to wear and scratching. So Meffert started to develop his own, patented process of electrolytic surface hardening, an "Eloxal" in German. The resulting very hard aluminumoxyde surface had for some time that "bronzish" color mentioned above. By the mid-1930s the surface hardening was fully developed.
I. Meffert had a comparatively high output for the size of the company as they farmed out the milling of the receivers to a company familiar with aluminum machining.

[sharps4590]

Thank you again, Axel!

Roger-Doug, no, mine does not have an additional pop-up front sight, and, yes, it is engraved "Hubertus" on the bottom of the receiver and it has very little engraving with a bit of stipling around the operating lever. I really don't believe mine was ever any other color than the silver it shows. I certainly cannot find any traces of another color anywhere. If I'm reading Axel correctly, between the lines, by the time mine was made, mid-30's, the silver color was the norm?

Doug, is that a horn trigger guard?

Vic

[Doug Kellermann]

Vic,
mine is a horn trigger guard.

I came across this Meffert Hubertus ad and found it interesting.



here is my attempt at the translation.:

With an added rifle barrel this is the the best replacement for the normal double shotgun, without excess weight. Available in all fine gun shops. Also there is a free brochure on drillings and shotguns.

[mike ford]

Vic,
The first Dural Mefferts were plain (silver colored), but later offered Annodized(?) due to demand.I think they were always avaliable silver. Note the Meffert written up in the "Drilling" issue of DER WAFFENSCHMIED, it was also originally 7X57R, until I changed it to 6.5x57R. My late friend Gene Enterkin also had one in black and 7X57R. This seems to have been a pretty popular caliber for the Dural Mefferts( it is a great caliber in any system). Also note the weights in the above advert.The Pfd.(Phund?) is half a kilogram or 500 grams.This would be about 1.1 pounds.
Mike