Need help with a Gustav Bohm/Krupp drilling

[BillKilgore]

Hello all.

I'm a new member from North Carolina in the US. I inherited a German drilling from my grandfather and would like to learn more about it. It is a double barrel 12 gauge with full choke and a 7.7x57 mm rifle. The barrels were ornately engraved and labeled with "Gustav Bohm" and "Krupp Stahl". If I understand correctly, several gun manufactures in Germany would use Krupp steel, hence the stamps. I am particularly interested in the date of manufacture and any info about the manufacturer.

Thank you in advance.

[BillKilgore]

More photos.

[BillKilgore]

Another set of photos.

[BillKilgore]

Last batch. Thank you again for any insight you can share.

[mike ford]

Bill,
Your Grandfather's drilling was made in or around Suhl for marketing by Gustav Boehm(the two little dots are an umlaut- the "e" substitutes for it) in Landsberg b(?) a(?)/ W ( couldn't read the small letter). It was proofed by the Suhl proof house between 1911( when they started using mm in bore diameter) and 1923( when they started dating them). It is chambered for shorter 12 gauge shells( 2 5/8") than todays standard length( 2 3/4"). This is shown by the 12 in a circle. The 13 next to the 12 in a circle is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber(13 gauge is about 18.03mm). The left hand shotgun barrel has a crown W proof mark, which means it is choked. The amount of constriction is not shown, but typically would be pretty tight. The crown U is the mark for View Proof, which is really a detailed inspection, including verifying dimensions after definitive proof. I didn't see them, but the shot barrels should each have a crown S, meaning they were proofed to fire shot. The 7.7mm is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter, and the 57 is the length of the cartridge case. This means there are a couple different cartridges it could be chambered for. The most likely would be the 8x57 IR (aka JR). This cartridge is currently available in the US from Sellier and Bellot. The other possibility is the 8x57R/360. This cartridge would be a handloading or custom loading proposition. The 8x57R/360 has a case head diameter similar to 30-30 and the 8x57IR case head diameter is similar to 30-06. You can tell which chambering you have by comparing the chamber to the American cartridge cases. The 7.7mm indicates it is intended for .318" bullets. The St.m.g. over 13g, means it was proofed for a 13 gram steel jacketed bullet of that diameter. The crown N next to this mark is for the nitro proof. Sometimes, both cartridges will accept a little larger bullet, but usually would be marked 7.8 or 7.9 mm. The small initials are touch mark of workmen that performed some operation on the gun. There is no way now to know who they were or what they did, with the possible exception of the two Ks enclosed in squares. I think this is the mark of some of the Klets( or maybe Kelbers) that made barrels. It would be a good idea to have the gap in the rib( where the front clawmount base was lost) repaired, but by someone experienced with this work. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

[Axel E]

Gustav Boehm/Böhm had a gunshop at Wollstasse 31 in Landsberg an der Warthe (on Warthe river), since 1945 Gorzow Wielkopolski, Poland. He is documented in 1916 and 1925.
The 13 gramm bullet weight point to the 8x57 R 360, as 8x57 IR guns were usually proofed for 15 gramm then.

[algmule]

Hello

Axel.
you may add 1931 to the years 1916 and 1925. In 1931 he was still at Wollstraße 31. He used the title Büchsenmachermeister in 1931.

EDIT: and in 1913 he was at Richtstraße 24 with the title Büchsenmacher.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

Hello

I count, for one year, in Suhl, 1912, no less than 25 names that would fit the initials H.S. Some are less likely and some are more likely. Something like another 15-20 names would be candidates if we consider the time frame up to 1923. On top of that, if we include people from Zella St. Blasii we end up with another 5 candidates for 1912, and even more if we take into the account the time up to 1923. 4 of the 25 from Suhl in 1912 had the same name. I usually toss around names and initials on rainy days just so I have something to do and the weather forecast promises rain tomorrow but I shall leave this challenge be.

Gustav Böhm started his business in Landsberg an der Warthe in one of the following years: 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912. There was a Gustav Böhm before the thread-topic Gustav Böhm in Landsberg an der Warthe but he did not peddle guns. I do not know when the business of Büchsenmacher Gustav Böhm ended. If indeed he was a Büchsenmacher-(meister).

Also: I know I'm annoying but compared to the forum continually logging me out when I'm posting, well, that is on a completely different, much worse, annoy-level.

Kind regards
Peter

[BillKilgore]

Thank you, gentlemen. I greatly appreciate the information you shared. The gun has been in our family for over 70 years, but nobody has known much about it.

[algmule]

Hello

"Gustav Böhm, Büchsenmachermeister, Waffenreparaturwerkstatt, Richtstraße 24" ([1924]1925)

Also: the year 1905 is no longer valid as a possibility for the commencement of Gustav Böhm's business. I can't vouch for it but I believe 1906 is also out of the equation.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
I don't know if it is the same problem, but sometimes I get dropped when I'm working on a long posting. The site has "auto save" and I have found that by getting back in, it is often possible to restore all but the last couple words.
Mike

[BillKilgore]

The 7.7mm is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter, and the 57 is the length of the cartridge case. This means there are a couple different cartridges it could be chambered for. The most likely would be the 8x57 IR (aka JR). This cartridge is currently available in the US from Sellier and Bellot. The other possibility is the 8x57R/360. This cartridge would be a handloading or custom loading proposition. The 8x57R/360 has a case head diameter similar to 30-30 and the 8x57IR case head diameter is similar to 30-06. You can tell which chambering you have by comparing the chamber to the American cartridge cases.

It would be a good idea to have the gap in the rib( where the front clawmount base was lost) repaired, but by someone experienced with this work. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

Hello Mike.
I tried dropping a 30-30 and a 30-06 round in the rifle. The 30-30 slipped in smoothly and extracted easily. The 30-06 round bound up with about 3 mm of brass extending out of the chamber. I was concerned because the 30-06 jammed tightly by just dropping the round into the chamber. I had to use a brass cleaning rod to tap the cartridge out from the muzzle. If I understand you correctly, this means it is a 8x57R/360.

Do you have any suggestions where I may find the front clawfoot? I have search Numrich and Popperts with no luck.

Thanks

[mike ford]

Bill,
Without actually seeing the comparison you performed, I reach a different conclusion than you did. A 30-06 cartridge would have considerably more of the case extending from an 8x57R/360 chamber than 3mm ; in fact, a 30-06 cartridge would barely start into it( a 30-06 case is about 6mm longer than an 8x57IR and the fact that only 3mm extended from the chamber was because of the larger diameter neck/throat of the 8mm chamber). Accordingly, I believe the chamber is 8x57IR( aka JR), this ammo is currently available, search for Sellier & Bellot. New England Custom Guns replaces claw mounts, from time to time, and they may have a front base removed from another 12 ga drilling( 16 ga would be more common) that could be fit to yours. Failing that, they could fit a new one with a blank "plate" in it. In my opinion, which may not mean much, if you have them do that much work, you may as well have them mount a scope in swing mounts. A significant part of the cost of mounting a scope would be absorbed by not having to do purely repair work.
Mike

[BillKilgore]

Mike. Thank you again for your guidance. Attached are a few pics with a 30-30 cartridge fully seated and a 30-06 cartridge gently dropped into the chamber.

[mike ford]

Bill,
The photos verify my opinion that the drilling is chambered for 8x57IR and not for 8x57R/360.
Mike