Trademark on no-name double

[algmule]

Hello

Anyone recognize this trademark? Owner in Norway seeks information.
xx.jpg

EDIT: sorry, forgot. The trademark is on a German double proofed before 1923. I've only seen the image above and as the information given is "before 1923" I assume we're looking for a craftsman from Suhl.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Looks like it's the F. W. Kessler, Suhl trademark stamped over with a B. There was a Bernhard involved in the business.

210E.jpg

Does anyone know why the Apel-site is down?

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
I read FJ rather than FW. I don't have an explanation, do you?
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Computer generation reports that if you improve the image quality it shows that it's a W and not a J.

Still wondering about the Apel site.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
Being computer illiterate I don't really understand what that means. The quality of the image you posted seems quite sufficient. If you are asking about Dietrich Apel's site, Larry Schuknecht took it on to manage after Dietrich passed on. Maybe he would know ( www.dutchmanwoodworks.com).
Mike

[Old No7]

I also see an F over a J, inside of a large K, and there's either an 8 or a B on there too...

Could the 8 be a symbol for the 2 shotgun bores, with the letters inside of F meaning "Full" and J meaning "Improved"?

A "J" for Improved? Possible, if it is of German origin...

Recall the 8mm Mauser ammo which was for "Infantry", but up until 1939, there was a single letter in German between the H and K. Whether it was an I or a J, it was one letter and was pronounced like our "Y" or "I" since there is no "J" (as in "John") sound in German. The 8mm Mauser for Infantry thus was known as the 8x57 J (with other variations based on size or rim/rimless).

I'm probably way off, but just in case that helps any... That's my guess.

Old No7

[algmule]

Hello

The Norwegian gentleman who suggested I try here has reported that it's a W and not a J. I have no reason to doubt his information. To me it's an F. W. Kessler trademark, either stamped over with a B or engraved over with a B. If this B is for a Bernhard Kessler I don't know. It was a mere suggestion on my part as there was a Bernhard involved in the business we refer to as F. W. Kessler, Suhl. I was trying to give a reasonable explanation for the B. As for computers I clearly stated when I became a member of the forum that I'm not overly computer friendly and I also gave fair warning as to me and the English language. Perhaps I should have written increase the image quality. i.e., one, as I assume, opens up the image in some software program and is able to get better image quality if one knows how to operate the software program. Of course this is all Greek to me.

As for language(s). Neither English nor German, or Swedish for that matter, is native to me. My native tongue is småländska, although I read and write Swedish. I've been known to dabble in Serbo-Croatian and Highland Celtic but that was so long ago I've forgotten almost everything but the odd phrase. I would love to be able to read French. Russian would come in handy as well.

Also: there should be laws against drinking/smoking herbs in Southern Maine.

EDIT: mike ford, thanks for directing me to Larry Schuknecht.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter, you can't be worse than I am with computers. I don't see anything wrong with your English. As for the trademark, I still can't make the J turn into a W.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Mike,
it has been reported that the thing has Suhl proofs. I take that as meaning it has a Suhl Nitro marking but no date code. We are looking for someone in Suhl between April 1912 and September 1923. It is the F. W. Kessler trademark. There never was a J. Kessler in Suhl nor a an F. J. Kessler in Bombai, Bonn, Båstad or wherever. Between 1895 and 1938 I can't find anyone with a surname beginning with B and a first name beginning with J working as Büchsenmacher, Graveur, Schlosser, Laufrichter, Schäfter, Systemmacher etc. in Suhl. Please correct me if I am in the wrong, which I'm not. I have spoken. If some other Büchsenmacher got hold of an F. W. Kessler offering and stamped over the trademark of that business with his own trademark B, please inform as to who used the trademark B in Suhl between 1912-1923. Until proven wrong I'll hold that the likeliest for the B is Bernhard Kessler. I'm not, however, saying it is. What I'm saying is, it's the likeliest.

I've seen an additional image of the double. Looks like a lovely shotgun. If further images turn up I'll ask permission to post them here.

Kind regards
Peter

[Old No7]

Also: there should be laws against drinking/smoking herbs in Southern Maine.

Very good, you got me with that -- touche'.

Perhaps my user name doesn't translate very well across the pond, but you're wrong on the smoking -- and correct with the drinking.

Although I haven't started "yet" today............

Old No7

[mike ford]

Peter,
I have no idea whose trademark that is, I still just can't make a W from the J. As for the "B", I can see it. If You post the Suhl proofs, maybe we can find something to help with the question. There were other "K"s beside Kessler in and around Suhl. Since it is on a shotgun, maybe Axel's friend Shotgun Charlie knows the mark.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Unequivocally, Peter is correct as that is F.W. Keßler's trademark overstamped w/ a B and then some odd working of the lower W to form a J?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[algmule]

Hello

The only other K-man in Suhl that fits the assumed time period that I was able to find is Johannes Klett, Büchsenmacher, Lauter/Heldersbacherstraße, Suhl. Why would he have used the trade mark of F. W. Kessler, Suhl? No, I've not checked the villages surrounding Suhl. I'm not saying there weren't others with a surname beginnig with K, but then again, why would they have used the mentioned trade mark of F. W. Kessler, Suhl?

I've not seen the proofs. Assumption of time period is mine. As it has been reported to be Suhl proofs I simply assumed the time period being 1912-1923. It could of course be the lack of ledger and not an assumed, on my part, Nitro mark from Suhl that gave the Norwegian gentleman reason to say it had Suhl proofs. We may have to extend the time period. If so, we will have to add two Büchsenmachers, one Schlosser and one Rohrmacher to the list o K-men to have used the trade mark of F. W. Kessler, Suhl. It's my firm belief not one of them did. I'm awaiting further info. If images turn up and I get permission to post them I will.

Raimey,
thanks.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

Hello

With permission from Norway.

bb.jpg
bbb.JPG
bbbb.JPG

On the rib is no name but there is a space prepared for one. R.K. could be for Rudolf Kelber (one of the Kelber Brothers). I've seen claims that he had another first name but have never been presented any sources for this. Unnecessary information: there was also a Rudolf Kelber, Gewehrschäfter in Suhl. R.K. could well be for someone else than Rudolf Kelber.

I've researched the business F. W. Keßler since 1986. I'm not familiar with any F. J. Kessler. The trade mark is the F. W. Kessler trade mark paired with a B. Possibly manipulated. Bernhard Keßler entered the business in 1900. 1912 saw him and Franz Keßler taking over. By late 1930's he was sole owner. 1920 Bernhard and Franz's widow Martha Keßler, maiden name Schönborn, owned the company. Martha protected the rights of Franz's children Otto Heinz and Wolfgang. The business is sometimes given as Fr. W. Keßler. There were other Keßler businesses. The last mentioning of the business being at Rimbachstraße 4. I have is 1901. First mentioning of Kleine Backstraße 1. is 1910.

Edit. a special from the business was Selbstspanner Drilling Triumph. One almost illegible ad says TIP-TOP GEWEHRE under the Triumph Drilling.

EDIT again. I welcome any information on F. W. Keßler, Suhl or any other information regarding the other Keßlers. There were Keßlers in Heinrichs, Mehlis/Zella-Mehlis, Schmalkalden and other places as well who were involved in the trade.

Kind regards
Peter