Circumsized 11.15x60R?

[Richard Venola]

With the help of a skilled friend, some Cerrosafe, dial calipers and a buddy's trip to the range, it appears that my newly acquired 1890-esque J. Reeb 16x16x??? is chambered for a wildcat, enjoying the same exact dimensions as a .43 Mauser / 11.15x60R German service cartridge, but with about 12mm clipped off the case neck.

Does this kurz round have a name? 11.15x37R Grenshaufsher is known as the "Tanganika." Could we call this the .43 Rabbi's Delight? 11mm Windhoek? 11mm Reeb?

Advice? Wisdom? Snide comments? All are welcome.

Richard

[Büchsemann]

Richard,

Well, that is one eye-catcher of a title you have there. Mike Ford has a bunch of info on the 11mm German cartridge variants and I suspect he will jump in and give you a hand. If I'm not mistaken he was the author of the article wriiten in the GGCA's WAIDMANNSHEIL Issue 46, Spring 2011, entitled "11mm Ammo and Rifles". ".43 Bobbit" is another name that comes to mind. 12 mm whacked off of a .43 Mauser (11.15X60R) leaves one with little more than 5/16" of neck (.3276" if we're being picky), certainly less than "normal" grip on a .43 projectile. It's a new one to me.

Regards,

Büchsemann

[mike ford]

Richard,
There are so many different nominal calibers that more or less meet the description you give of the cartridge that you may never actually know what it was chambered for. In the first place,we usually have only a chamber cast and "bore slug" to go by, and we know the cartridge has to be smaller than the chamber. How much smaller and in which dimensions, is the question. It seems that each manufacturer had his own idea about this. Also,just comming from the muzzle loading era, they weren't nearly as "picky" with bullet diameters as we are now. With all this, it's my opinion that it's not important anyway, as long as you can find or make cases and bullets that fit. After all, it's not likely that "Joe's Hook & Bullet and Tire Store" will have ammo for sale. You are going to have to make ammo yourself, so you can call it what ever you want- maybe 11.15x48R-maybe something else. Buechseman's comments about the neck length brings to mind 11.15x42 Werndl, which has a short neck(4mm). To get a better idea, we need more info, such as groove dia.,head dia., rim dia., rim thickness, case length(may not be as long as chamber cast), and photos would be helpful. What you have on hand is a project that promises to be a lot of fun- especially when you take a deer with it.
Mike

[Richard Venola]

Photo of mystery round

Gents: Thanks muchly for the educational replies. Have attempted to attach photos of the action as well as of the custom round next to a faux .43 made from a .348 WCF. The custom 11.15x47R was made from Betram Brass cut down and when fired, my reloader buddy measured it and none of its dimensions changed, so we may be in business, provided I can get more brass. Richard o' the Reeb

[Büchsemann]

Richard,

Looks like a nice gun. I see the photo is tagged as a "Reeb" drilling, which Reeb?



Büchsemann

[Richard Venola]

J. Reeb of Bonn, riflemaker to the Kaiser. From what I've been able to gather, Reeb's smithy was quite a school and several men who apprenticed there went onto illustrious careers. This dreilling shows evidence of different workmanship on various parts. Perhaps it was built by the shop or by students as a "project" gun. The heel and four-round reservoir in the stock have been repaired, and the repair appears to have been a post-WWII affair as it was accomplished with stamped steel (possessing sharp, unfinished edges). The claw scope bases were apparently added later and rather crudely. What impresses me is the matter-of-fact nickel finish, unadorned parts and plain but strong wood. This was built as a working gun and I would like to imagine a bright young administrator in the colonial office taking it proudly off to Tanginika or Sud West Afrika. The bore (s) are in exceptionally good condition and I'm in pursuit of a scope and claw rings.

[mike ford]

Richard,
Brass shouldn't be a problem, check the other thread in the Doublegun BBS about making cases from 45-70. On the other hand, if you have more money than you need, you can buy it from Bertram ( 43 Mauser/11mmMauser/11.15x60R Mauser). You didn't say what the groove/bullet diameter is. The hardest part is finding dies,but it looks like your reloader buddy has that well in hand.
Is the "faux 43" in your photo really sized to chamber in a Mauser, or is it the original 348 Win. head diameter? If you want to, you can make cases from 348, but it would be a real job, more so than making them from 8x50R Lebel. You are correct that the claw mounts were added later, virtually all of them were.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Here's some info on Reeb:

Johann Jakob Reeb (1843-1924) started his business in 1870 at Josephstrasse 49 in Bonn, taking over the business of Ewqld Becher. In 1872 he was located at Dreieck 6 in Bonn and in 1877 added an additional workshop and major retail business with guns and accessories in 1877. In 1883 he moved to Münsterplatz 17 and is listed as Hofbüchenmacher since 1887 and as a gun manufacturer. He outfits two expeditions for the Africa explorer Schilling. He retires from the business in 1909.

from http://myplace.frontier.com/~reedfamily142/id1.html

I have serious reservations that the Reeb concern contributed any effort less the scope mounts. Post an image of the marks under the tube and they may point to a maker in Zella Mehlis or Suhl. Johann Jakob Reeb was sourced by a court, possibly just a figure-head type ruler, was not a true maker to a King, but merely used it as advertising. Such dubbing required the submission of his wares, or actually wares made by the best of the best and then forwarded on to their shop, and warranted a yearly fee.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Raimey,
Would you be "shocked,surprised,and dismayed" if you found out it was made by Meffert?
Mike

[ellenbr]

Actually Ford, I would find solace in that discovery. But Reeb did heavily source the mechanics at Zella-Mehlis as well as Liege.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Richard Venola]

I am merely a student going down an unfamiliar path, collecting information along the way. The rib is marked, J. Reeb, and then the German word for "town rifle maker." The dreilling is currently at my reloader's place or I'd describe proof marks. Previous online research indicates the Reeb shop was quite extensive and involved sons and partners and built some guns for the Hohenzollerns. As to its pedigree, I have "no dog in the fight." Tell me more about Zella-Mehlis. Thanks for everyone's (continuing) input. Richard

[mike ford]

Richard,
It would be helpful if you would provide clear photos of any markings under the barrels,and/or on water table. With this, I suspect Axel or Raimey can find out more. Even the lack of real proof marks would verify whether it was made before proof law came into effect in 1893. If it has a crown over V on the rib, it would confirm the gun was at a dealers on the date the law was effected.
If you reload yourself,it would be a lot more fun.
Mike

[Richard Venola]

I'm a student following a very unfamiliar path and have "no dog in this fight" as to who made the beautiful old gal. The dreilling has J. Reeb on the rib, followed by the German for "Town Rifle Maker." The gun is at my reloader or I'd list / photo the proof marks. From what I've been able to distill from on-line research Reeb's shop was expansive, with many sons, partners and students. It seems he sold some firearms to the Hohenzollerns hence the "Royal" tag. Zella-Mehlis was Anschutz, right? Thanks very much for all the input and commentary. I was disappointed in posting a WTB for an old Euro low-voltage scope. There was one offered, but sadly, it was 8X. I've had my reloader order 100 Bertram casings for mutation. Richard

[ellenbr]

Like Curtis M. Ford notes, if you'd post some images of the marks, they may point to a maker. I think Suhl/Zella-Mehlis was maybe the shortest distance to a proofhouse & that would be some 200 miles(only about 90 miles to Liege), quite a distance to ride on a cart & wagon with a load of barrels. I'm sure rail was available by the time your example was proofed. So why send it to & fro while you can source the mechanics near the proofhouse, who have a working relationship with said proofhouse. And I'm sure Reeb & his kids passed thru Suhl on their respective walkabout. Basically they performed repairs and mounted scopes as they were waffenhandlers or firearms merchants and didn't have time to reinvent the wheel. The bulk of the work as accomplished in gunmaking centers and as I said Reeb sourced the craftsmen in Liege & Zella-Mehlis for the bulk of the effort. The concern could have added adornment, etc. The firm may have had mechanics & apprentices but I challenge their contribution on the bulk of effort for completing a sporting weapon. Last, the touchmark will prove it out.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

I forgot to note that REBO is a trademark of J.J. Reeb. Does the sporting weapon wear the REBO stamp. Baumgarten sent me some images of a Belgian sourced J.J. Reeb that wears the REBO trademark, telegraph number, something. Reeb had model numbers and if anyone has a catalogue there should be an image of 2 rampant stags forming an inverted V with an encircled REBO in the center. So even J.J. Reeb's Belgian sourced sporting weapons wear the REBO stamp; therefore, they contributed some effort, probably adornment, or they wanted to keep with their serialization which warranted the REBO stamp. But the core effort was from a gunmaking center and that is why the proofhouses are in the vicinity of the gunmaking centers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse