German made (old) Buffalo gun in 45-70

[TomT]

Hi all,

I am a new member, and this will be my first official post (other than my new member introduction).

Back in 1984, in a small gun shop in Pine Hill, NY, my father purchased, at my urging (as a 14yo boy), a German, single shot, double trigger, 45-70 rifle. The receipt reads "German La Ranar". I was hoping that one of you folks might have some knowledge of the origin (date, company, etc.) of this rifle. I'm not interested in value, as its PRICELESS to me (my old man and hunting partner died in 2008). Thanks in advance for any info., you can supply! -TomT

Here's a LINK to the photos of the rifle. I HOPE it's not poor form to post a LINK to the original uploads, but it's a pain to upload them:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...e#Post13583848

[mike ford]

TomT,
The markings under the barrel will reveal the original caliber and likely the proof date of your rifle. You should post clear legible photos of these markings, here, and we will provide additional information. This type rifle is pretty often seen, but usually chambered for much smaller cartridges, such as 8.15x46R, which is one of the most encountered. About the largest cartridge originally available in these single locking lug, under lever rifles is 9.3x72R. From the 45-70 stamp on the barrel, it is pretty clear that the rifle was rebored and rechambered in the US. Once we see the proof marks, we will respond again.
Mike

[Axel E]

These simple, break open, underlever rifles were a stple of the Zella – Mehlis guntrade, sort of a cottage industry. they were usually made for the trade and rarely marked by the real maker, but more often by a distributor or retailer. On your rifle the retailer did not care and left the space provided on top of the barrel blank. these rifles came in several low pressure chamberings, .30-30 class at best. Your rifle was rebored to .45-70 in the USA post-WW2. To find out about the original caliber, date and possibly maker, take off the foreend and post a photo of all the marks and numbers under the barrel. The .45-70 was virtually unknown in Germany prior to the 1970s. When these rifles were made, 1900 – 1940, the cartridge was obsolescent in the USA too. I would not trust this comparatively weak single bite action with .45-70 loads above US factory or trapdoor level.

[sharps4590]

I'll leave the details to Mike, Axel and those who are vastly better versed than me. However, I will agree with Axel that the rifle shouldn't be fired with anything hotter than Trapdoor loads and add it's a far cry from a "Buffalo rifle" such as a Sharps, Rolling Block or Ballard. Even the weak Ballard action will hold a 45-100. I know because I have one. I'm not certain that rifle would without shooting loose rather quickly.

[TomT]

I took the forearm off as suggested and I've added 2 photos of the underside of the barrel to the LINK (reposted below). It apparently started life as a 9.3 x 72. The second added picture is of the proof marks, which mean nothing to me, but hopefully it will mean something to you folks.

I have fired the rifle once in the last 35+/- years, with my own MILD hand loads. I know it is not of modern/strong manufacture, so firing factory loads isn't a concern.
I may use it to shoot a Whitetail, just because I can. To be honest, I hand load over 30 rifle & pistol cartridges, and except for rimfire, haven't shot a factory round since the mid 80's.

LINK:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...e#Post13583848

Thanks again for the info., and any additional light you can shed on year of manufacture and origin of this rifle! TomT

[Axel E]

Your photo is a bit out of focus. I read the prof date as 2.19 = February 1919. 251 is the ledger number of the Zella – Mehlis proofhouse for that month. The regular proofmarks crown/B = proofload fired, crown/G = proofed for use of a Geschoss/bullet (rifle proof), crown/U = Untersuchung, inspected for defects. Apparently proofed for black powder, as there is no crown/N mark visible. No hints to the real maker(s), as usual.

[TomT]

Thank you Axel! The info. is much appreciated. The fuzzy picture was the best I could do with my I phone, and poor lighting.

So, the rifle was made this year. :-) j/k. There is some irony to my inquiring on the 100th anniversary of the rifles manufacture. I thought it was a bit older (50 years?), but I’ve been wrong before.

Next up (if you all will tolerate me), my sporterized Mauser in 7x57 Mauser (looks like a 22 LR bolt... in overall size anyway).

Thanks again! -TomT

[sharps4590]

This is purely musing out loud. I would be very tempted to reline the rifle back to its original cartridge, if possible. Not that it matters because of who, where and when the rifle was acquired but, any real value has already been compromised by the re-boring and chambering. Taking it back to the original 9.3 X 72R couldn't hurt it and it could be shot a heck of a lot more and well, it would be right.

[mike ford]

TomT,
The question of original caliber, date of proof and type of proof have already been answered. My request for photos of the proof marks was to answer these questions, but also because I have a similar rifle that was rebored to 45 cal. Mine has a "Pistol cartridge" length chamber and both the reboring and rechambering were improperly done( oversize). The proof marks had been removed from my rifle, and I was interested in seeing if they had been removed from yours; which might have indicated both were rebored by the same person. Even though I make cases for mine from 7.62x54R and shoot it with 45 colt( sized to .452 at base only) bullets. We are in a very similar situation and I am seriously considering having mine relined to a different caliber, more appropriate to the rifle. While I would choose 5.6x50R, Sharps4590's idea of going back to 9.3x72R(norm) is a good one. Rifles in 9.3x72 came in different diameters, one of which (.358-.359") is readily available in American barrels. The bore( not groove or bullet) diameter of your rifle was marked as 8.8mm, which is sometimes found on .358-.359" barrels. This means your rifle can be returned to the original caliber, pretty easily. There are 9.3x72R (norm) reamers available because older versions of 9.3x72R( such as the "D" version) are sometimes cleaned up to the (norm) version. The stamp on your rifle of 9.3x72R (norm), indicates this may have been done to your rifle, in Germany, sometime in it's life. This is your rifle and you are free to do with it as you will, whether that is have it lined to 9.3x72R, some other appropriate caliber ( 6.5x52R AKA 25-35 Win., 5.6x50R, etc.), or keep it "as is". I can say from personal experience, and I suspect Sharps4590 will agree, loading for and shooting a 9.3x72R with either cast or jacketed bullets is very satisfying.
Mike

[Diz]

TomT, the problem with the two cartridges is one of back-thrust. That is the force exerted by the base of the case against the face of the breech. The numbers I have for these two cartridges are these and if anyone has something different please speak up. The 45-70 is rated at 31908 psi by CIP and 28000 psi by SAMI. The base area is .2903 square inches that gives a back-thrust of 8128.4 pounds. The 9.3x72R is rated at 29008 psi by CIP with a base area of .1855 square inches. The back-thrust is 5380.9 pounds. The area makes all the difference. In order for the 45-70 load to equal the original you would have to load it down to about 18500 Pmax. This could certainly be done and would place the same strain on the gun as the original cartridge. Not enough gunsmiths are familiar with the problem of back-thrust and cause problems sometimes. Being an avid (rabid) handloader I might just load it down and leave it alone. However, I agree with Mike that it could be relined and brought back to the original caliber but the modifications are already there and you alone can make the decision. I just wanted to try and explain what it is and why. Best of luck with it. Diz

[Old No7]

Interesting thread...

There are gunsmiths in the U.S. who make .22 LR "Liners" that friction fit (as they are removable) inside of .45-70 barrels for cheap and fun plinking; that too could be an option if one could be adapted to that model.

It's not original -- but neither is the current chambering.

Old No7

[mike ford]

Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette shooters have a separate course of fire that allows the "liners"( einstecklaufs), mentioned by Old No7, in competition. They are a serious option and useful for more than plinking.
Mike

[Hook]

Tom, please hurry up and show us the skinny 7X57. I love slim rifles and really am looking forward to seeing the one you described!