To Open the cone or keep them original

[Doug Kellermann]

In one of my prior posts, I mentioned opening the cones in a 16 ga to use the modern 70mm (2.75 inch) shells and there appears to be a rather interesting set of views.

My question is: do you open the 16 ga cones to 70 mm or keep them factory original at 65mm, and why?

[Norregard]

No way!
Because:
- The gun will not be in original state anymore.
- Factory ammo is available in enough variations to fulfill all my needs.
- There is only a microscopical, if any, practical difference in power between 65 and 70 mm.

/ Hannes

[mike ford]

If the gun is a simi-modern working gun, the owner should be able to decide its fate.It may be a different story if the gun is a high condition,highly collectable/historical piece. If a gun has had a scope mounted or einstecklauf installed, it is not in the original state anymore either, it has been enhanced. Hannes is right that there is not much difference in power, but there is also not much difference in pressure either. There is a significant difference in avaliability however. Also short shells are not avaliable in "Brands" some people prefer.I have short shells and use them in some of my older guns, so I'm not deadset against either side(Ihave a reamer so I could rechamber them if I wanted to).Who would turn down a great buy on a good drilling, because it had long chamber? A good many have been turned down for having short chambers.I'm sure there are guns being proudly used with short shells, and so marked, that actually have long chambers now.
This is a question that is sure to result in heated discusions. This is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like.
Mike

[sharps4590]

As Mike already stated, it's an opinion and we all have one. Ultimately it is the owners decision and I don't believe either way is wrong. My "opinion" is that I like things original, as manufactured...to the point of being a bit anal about it....lol! I have walked away from altered firearms, chamber length being one of those alterations, but that's me and I bet I'm in the minority. My opinion is no more right for the next person than altering a firearm or purchasing an altered firearm is right for me. I altered the chambers on my Inman Meffert but I won't do it again to a different firearm. I wouldn't alter the chambers pretty much for the reasons Norregard stated.

If one doesn't reload...and to get any variety in a 16 bore and not spend a fortune on ammo you about have to these days....then I can certainly understand lengthening the cones. And if it will allow you to enjoy the firearm more then by all means, lengthen those cones!

[Büchsemann]

Yep, pretty much just a personal preference here to leave the old arms as original as possible and not buy those that have been, as my father used to say, "dicked with". While alterations from original specifications made to "high condition" collectibles can have a negative impact on value (rarity can change things) there are many more early arms floating around, not necessarily investment pieces but fine arms none the less, that should be "taken out" and enjoyed. As Vic (sharps4590) said "... if it will allow you to enjoy the firearm more then by all means, lengthen those cones!". I get a kick out of all of the early German (and other) sporting weapons so if they can be brought back to life and used for time in the field I would encourage any to do whatever is necessary to make it happen.

Büchsemann (Mark)

[Doug Kellermann]

It appears there are 3 types of drilling buyers. Those that are purchasing pristine guns for collector purposes. Those that are purchasing the guns for nostalgia. Those that are purchasing the guns as hunting tools. This is my observation only, I believe all the types of purchaser categories merit.

Once one understands the category a person falls, work performed or not performed on the gun will be better understood.

I typically fall in to the hunting category. Given none of the drillings I purchased have been pristine, the chokes have been opened and the cones have been lengthened along with other repairs.

Doug

[mike ford]

Doug,
I agree 100%. I spent enough time in Walter Grass's gunshop that I'm absolutely convinced that if the conditions were the same when these guns were built as they are now, they would have been built with 65mm chambers and more open chokes.The first 65mm chambers I opened up,in fact, were for Walter, in a hammer gun that was his.He would never have asked me to do this if it hadn't been a good idea.My Meffert drilling( A Drilling Risen from the Grave-Der Waffenschmied-Drillings issue) and my John Rigby Mauser (The Luck of the Irish-Waidmammsheil issue 41, pg 17), could have hardly been "dicked with" more. If they hadn't been, they would be a blender or lawn mower blade by now. I do think that one person can fit all three types of drilling buyer you mention. I hunt with mine, but appreciate the pristine collector and historical examples Dietrich and Dick have featured in "Der Waffenschmied" over the years. The only way some of us " po folks" can have many of our beloved guns is to buy the cripples and make them well again.
Mike

[Büchsemann]

A little more personal opinion here or a few cents worth:

Many, probably a vast majority, of the old German arms that we see today have seen better days. Some unfortunately are "basket cases" with cracked stocks, buggered screws and have bores that look like old exhaust pipes. Saving such arms from the grave, to me anyway, is a labor of love as there is no way that one would ever recover the money that it would take for a "proper" restoration when the time to sell has come around. My hat is off to the folks that not only have the ability but the desire to put such efforts into bringing the old piece back to life. From personal experience I know that much of such efforts that are put into these old pieces are done so as learning exercises besides as a means of income or favor. Removing metal, such as opening up chokes or lengthening shot tube chambers is the easiest thing one can do. Such modifications are not clearly visible and do help as a step to getting the gun back in the field for some. I personally don't do this but doing so is something I see as a choice which is up to the current owner. Next in line is steaming out dents and replacing buggered screws which if done well does little to detract from value when noticed by a trained eye but does improve the guns overall appearance, screws though are not cheap!. Internal action work, often necessary to get the gun working in a safe manner if at all, is another that when done properly does little if anything to detract from value but without surely would deter many from purchase. Once you start refinishing the wood and barrels or replacing stocks the value starts dropping off fast although in many instances, to some, the gun looks much better. Again from personal experience, it is rare to see anybody spend more money on a refurbed gun than a gun in nice original condition. At that point one better like the gun and plan on using it for a while because getting the money out of a re-stock job (wood and labor) is very difficult. One other "modification" that comes to mind that when done well increases the value of an early combination gun is the proper fitting of a scope. Many of us do not see as well as we used to so in order to hunt or at the very least shoot well at the range we need the assist of optics. Having existing bases on the gun is a major plus for many as the "subjective" originality of the barrels, given that many bases were added later anyway, is not taken away when rings i.e. scope are fit. It can be a rather expensive undertaking when one has to have the work performed by another but IMHO it's worth it. To sum things up I say do whatever you feel is necessary to get your enjoyment out of these great works of the gunmaker's art. If you're in the piece to "turn it around" be prepared to deal with the workings of the current market. Remember that all you need when selling is that one "right guy" that appreciates the gun for what it is refurbed or not.

Büchsemann

[mike ford]

There is absolutely no doubt that a "refurbed" gun is worth less than if it were still new,or close to it.The question is whether it is worth less than it was before the work was done.My argument is with those that say "flat out" that some gun has been "ruined",or is worth less because of some work they can see; but have no idea what condition it was in before.
Mike

[Büchsemann]

Mike,

I agree and know exactly what you mean. Many $200.00 guns (just a low number) would have been fence posts, anti-snake clubs, or God knows what else if someone hadn't seen that within was a treasure from years gone by and put a little TLC into bringing it back to at least a functional state. I was just saying if one puts a grand (for instance) into bringing it back don't expect to get it all out. Some pass feeling it's not worth it and others are up to the challenge figuring they'll have fun with the old arm today not caring at all what they'll get out of it later. It's the memories of time in the field with a fun gun that retain their worth until such memories fade.

Büchsemann

[Doug Kellermann]

Mike and Buchsemann
Great points.

My first drilling had everything wrong with it. Off Face, wrong scope mount and scope, nail for front sight, redone stock in bark brown lacquer which hid a cracked stock at the neck, dings in the barrel, and some internal rusting. After all the work the gun looks great. The resale value of the gun was never a consideration. After buying 8 drillings and bringing back to working order 6 drillings, resale was never a consideration. I will leave that up to my children. As a matter of practice I always open the chokes and remove the cones. To me this is a practical matter, prior to getting into drillings the 16 ga was my shotgun caliber of choice. I have alot of bird shot, buck shot and Brenneke Dynamit Nobel slugs.

I did an analysis of a Funk drilling to determine the price in todays dollars and found the cost to be close to $10k.

Doug

[sharps4590]

Reference the rebuilding or refurbishing of hacked firearms I only wish I had the skills and equipment to do said work. I thoroughly enjoy doing what little I know how to do. Just reforming brass for guns for which ammo is no longer available is a bit thrill. I believe it would be cause for great satisfaction to take a boat anchor and bring it back to usable, presentable condition....but I would prefer to be able to make the repairs and refurbishings as original as possible. And of course there are exceptions to everything.

[C. Roger Bleile]

I realize that the answer to this question is open to debate, but is reaming the chambers from 65 mm to 70 mm a safety hazard? I have never heard of such a gun failing.

Thanks,
Roger

[mike ford]

Roger,
If the gun is in decent shape, with steel barrels, I don't think so. I don't know if there is much , if any, difference in proof pressures. Of course, you should check where the new chamber would end,to be sure there is enough diameter. I have heard that FW LC Smiths (16 ga) are not large enough, but haven't heard of any German guns with steel barrels too small.
Mike

[Doug Kellermann]

I realize that the answer to this question is open to debate, but is reaming the chambers from 65 mm to 70 mm a safety hazard? I have never heard of such a gun failing.

Thanks,
Roger

The reason I open the shotgun chambers is as a safety precaution. I under stand the plastic hull in the modern cartridges are what produce the extreme pressure. I understand the older 2.5 inch shell has cardboard hulls.

Doug