Mannlicher-Schoenauer Identification Help

[WindSurgeon]

Hi all. New to the forum. I have wanted one of these guns and been looking for a "shooter" rifle to hunt with for several years. I finally won a Mannlicher-Schoenauer at auction, but am having trouble identifying exactly what I have. While there is info out there on the Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903, none of them are in "7mm" as the stamp on this rifle indicates. All images on the web point to a 1925 version with the caliber stamp on the receiver ring, but what confuses me is that the receiver indicates a 1903. Do you all think this is a parts built rifle or factory original? Also, What 7mm caliber is it?

Thank you all for any help you can provide. Images attached.

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[mike ford]

WindSurgeon,
I am not the expert on Mannlicher Schoenauers and often make it known by giving an erroneous answer before a real expert comes on. I think it would be helpful to them if you posted photos of the proof marks and any other markings under the barrel, so they can determine if the rifle has been rebarreled/rebored from 6.5x54MS to 7x57.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I can't read the crest on the front receiver ring but if it says "1903", it should have been a 6.5 X 54 M/S cartridge. It's been re-barreled. If it was re-barreled stateside there probably won't be but few, if any stamps on the barrel. That and no 1903 stutzen I have ever seen has had the barrel extend beyond the stock. As Mike mentioned, now a fella needs to determine exactly which 7mm you have. It could be stamped on the bottom of the barrel, if you trust it. Best would be a chamber cast.

For a pretty nice hunting rifle being re-barreled doesn't hurt it. It does significantly impact the value as an original or collector rifle.

[WindSurgeon]

I can't read the crest on the front receiver ring but if it says "1903", it should have been a 6.5 X 54 M/S cartridge. It's been re-barreled. If it was re-barreled stateside there probably won't be but few, if any stamps on the barrel. That and no 1903 stutzen I have ever seen has had the barrel extend beyond the stock. As Mike mentioned, now a fella needs to determine exactly which 7mm you have. It could be stamped on the bottom of the barrel, if you trust it. Best would be a chamber cast.

For a pretty nice hunting rifle being re-barreled doesn't hurt it. It does significantly impact the value as an original or collector rifle.

Thank you. I am waiting for delivery of the rifle. I was very excited to win it and plan to shoot it. I'll post some markings when the rifle is received. Would you have any idea of what it is worth if it is a re-barreled rifle?

[Axel E]

The serial number dates the rifle to the late 1920s. It was certainly rebarreled from 6.5x54 M-S to 7x57 aka 7mm Mauser in the 1950s due to ammo availability. The conversion was most likely done in the USA. There are several hints: The gunsmith left the barrel slightly longer than the original one to comply with the US 18" minimum length. As the Austrians used metric units, original M-Sch M1903 carbine barrels are 45 cm, that is 17.72", just short of the1950s US legal minimum. The caliber designation "7 M/M" is completely un-European. The correct metric abbreviation of "millimeter" is mm or MM, never M/M. A German or Austrian gunsmith would have marked "7x57", as there were several 7mm cartridges then in Europe. Not so in America, where the only known 7mm cartridge was the 7x57. This was before the 7mm Remington Magnum was introduced in 1962. The Weatherby number was still little known.
The conversion certainly detracts from the collector value, but makes the rifle a lot easier to feed as a practical hunting rifle. Provided, of course, the gunsmith altered the magazine too to properly take and feed the slightly bigger 7x57 cartridge.
Apparently the trigger was converted from the factory double set to a single.
On the plus side, the rifle seems to retain a period Lyman 36 receiver sight. These sights are long out of print. They are now sought after by Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados and highly valued, read expensive. If you ever happen to find one.

[mike ford]

The legal rifle barrel length in the US was and is 16"; 18" is the legal shot barrel length. These are both mandated by the "National Firearms Act"( NFA), along with the 26" overall length for one made from a shotgun or rifle. Shorter than these lengths, classifies the gun as a "Firearm" under the "Act", subjecting it to the $200 manufacturing and or transfer tax, and attendant registration.
Mike

[Axel E]

The legal rifle barrel length in the US was and is 16"; These are both mandated by the "National Firearms Act"( NFA),

Apparently it wasn't so all the time since WW2. Why did Steyr lengthen the barrels of their 6.5x54 M-S carbines to 46 cm, a full 18", when they started production of M1950 carbines post –WW2, mostly for export to Stoeger, USA? Additionally, read Lud Olson's description of the Swedish M 94/14 carbine to the end (from his book "Mauser Bolt Rifles"):

[mike ford]

The NFA was passed in the 1930s, if it had been changed, it would have a latter date. There are a great many things in this law that are misunderstood, including antiques/ replicas, machine guns, destructive devices, "any other weapons", etc. It is highly possible( even likely) that someone misunderstood the 18" as applying to rifles. Also it is possible that someone thought a 17.7" barrel( assuming they knew how to measure a barrel) had to have been "cut off". Many people here don't think in cm, I overheard a heated conversation in a gunshow about whether or not a German double barrel shotgun had shortened barrels, because they didn't measure an even number of inches. Also, it is possible some limited local legal jurisdiction had an 18" limitation, just as some classifying semiautomatic rifles that hold more than 10( or 15 or 20) rounds as machine guns.
Mike

[sharps4590]

The NFA was passed into law in 1934.

Just guessing on value from what I've seen on the various gun sites I would suspect between $1,000 and $1,500.

Given where the front sight is I think you could have the barrel bobbed and re-crowned. Shouldn't be very expensive to have done and would certainly improve the appearance.

[Axel E]

On the history of the NFA, from Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
Quote: "Regarding the definition of "firearm," the language of the statute as originally enacted was as follows:
The term "firearm" means a shotgun or rifle having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length, or any other weapon, except a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machine gun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within the foregoing definition
Minimum barrel length was soon amended to 16 inches for rimfire rifles and by 1960 had been amended to 16 inches for centerfire rifles as well." End of Quote.

[WindSurgeon]

Thanks Sharps. The stock is original so the length is original. I am not sure about the rear barrel mount site that has the retainer metal in it. It looks original, but not sure how a smith would copy this aspect of the barrel contour. Shortening the barrel would make it look more original, but wondering if I could just buy an original barrel somewhere.

[Axel E]

Finding a stray original M1903 Stutzen/carbine barrel in decent, useable condition will be a real task. You can not use a Greek military barrel in the Stutzen stock. The rifle and military barrels are of a somewhat heavier profile than the civilian carbine ones and will not fit Stutzen stocks.
If the carbine shoots ok with the 7x57 barrel and the magazine handles the cartridges, I would not rebarrel it to the original chambering. Try the traditional 7x57, 175 gr rn loads first, as the magazine was likely set up for these loads. If the mag was altered in any way, it will be very difficult to reconvert it to 6.5x54 M-S. You can always file or grind off metal, but it is very difficult to put it back on and reshape it for proper functoning.
It is not necessary for a gunsmit to copy the rear and front sight bases. These and the front swivel base are not integral with the barrel, but of ring type. soft soldered around the barrel. To put them on a replacement barrel is quite easy: Heat the soft solder and slip the rings off the old barrel. Turn the new barrel to the correct diameters in the proper places, slip on the sight base rings and fasten them by soft solder or even epoxy.

[Axel E]

$ 800.- seems to be a very good price, regarding a Lyman 36 peep sight alone recently went for $ 300.- on ebay.

[sharps4590]

I'm afraid you could spend a lot of time and money chasing barrels, if you can find one to chase, that probably aren't in very good condition. It's purely my opinion but I think I'd just have the barrel cut to the correct length and recrowned then use it as it. As much as I like my '03 in 6.5 X 54, there ain't no fly's on the 7 X 57.

[WindSurgeon]

$ 800.- seems to be a very good price, regarding a Lyman 36 peep sight alone recently went for $ 300.- on ebay.

I looked around at parts on the internet. Not much out there and what is out there is EXPENSIVE. I could part it out and double my money on it. Not that that is the plan, but makes me feel better about my buy.