Question about full stock rifle 2 piece fore ends

[mikev]

First, best wishes for a happy and healthy 2019!

I have seen at least 3 examples of full stocked German rifles that have a two piece fore end as shown in the attached (I hope) pic.
I have been told that these are repaired duffel cuts by GIs bringing them home. I have also been told that these were made this way. I tend to believe the latter as all three that I have seen have had the cuts in the same place and at about same angle and the workmanship was excellent. All were by different makers or retailers.

Also two I have seen have recent import marks so probably not US GI bring backs from WWII.
If that is the case what is the purpose of this two piece stock? Why not leave it one piece?
Just curious.

[Leatherman]

I'll put my two cents in this one. I do know that two piece forearms were common practice with many gun builders. I have been told that this was to allow the barrel to stretch after shooting when the barrel heats up, thus not putting any bind or preasure between stock and barrel that would cause accuracy variations. I don't have any experience with one of these two piece stocks but I do with one piece stocks and forearms that have a keyed attachment . The rifles I have had with one piece forearms definitely were cold barrel shots. All subsequent shots would spread as the barrel heated up. These rifles had a screw or a pin at the front of the stock as well as a key through the back half. I'm sure others will add more as to the reason to have two piece forearms other than it makes it easier to disassemble the rifle.

[mike ford]

My vote goes with Leatherman's explanation.
Mike

[mikev]

Well as a drilling shooter I should have thought of that. Sure makes sense to me. Thanks Leatherman and Mike too.

[sharps4590]

Interesting Letherman. I have a few rifles with keyed forearms but, as with yourself, none are stutzen stocked, two piece. Some of mine will walk and some won't. My Haenel/Aydt Schuetzen rifle is as solid the 10th shot as it is the 1st. My 9 X 57 Sauer & Sohn on a 98 Mauser with a keyed stock will start walking after the 2nd shot. As with my Schuetzen rifle, my Bartles stalking rifle doesn't walk either. All my drillings and combination guns walk after the 2nd or 3rd shot, depending on how hot the cartridge. None of them are keyed. Ah...my German double rifle doesn't seem to walk but with it only shooting about 2 1/2 to 3 in. groups at best, it could be I don't see it. I don't believe my Reilly double in 500 BPE walks, amazingly. It will hold 2 to 2 1/2 inches, composite groups, about all day long. Well, that is with Nitro for black loads. The BP load I finally got to shoot in it will walk after 3 rights and lefts. Walk is optimistic....it really just opens up to who knows what.

[mike ford]

Multi-barrel tip up guns "walk" for different reasons than one piece full length stocked rifles. When you shoot one of the barrels( usually rifle barrel) several times it heats up and expands, but is restricted by the cold barrel(s) next to it and attached by soldered ribs; it may "walk" and will likely move more, the warmer it gets. They have separate forearms, so are not affected the same way as full stocked rifles, even if the forearm is attached by a key. This is why it is important to fire both barrels of a double rifle, as quickly as you can re-aquire the target when testing, and allow the rifle barrel to cool to ambient temperature between shots when sighting in a combination gun. All this trouble is only necessary when working up loads and "sighting in";
when actually hunting, the first shot will be from a cold barrel and if another is needed you just shoot as demanded by the situation .
Mike

[yamoon]

Is there a reason for a full length stock other than eye appeal? I must admit I like them.
Mike

[mike ford]

Mike,
Even though we sometimes see protection of the hands/fingers from a hot/cold barrel as the reason, I suspect you are correct and it is mainly a stylistic form, left over from percussion Jaeger rifle days. I may be wrong, and I have to admit that I like them too,
Mike

[Packrattusnongratus]

I have had a couple of Sako L579s, one in 243 and one in .308.Both 2 piece F/Ss. Although the 308 was stolen 2 years ago I have shot them both but not to the point of really hot barrels. I find I'm perhaps satisfied with minute of whitetail or feral pig and not as picky as some. My Valmet doesn't walk but shoots much closer than I thought it would. I haven't shot my Verney-Carron Sagittaire yet to see how that goes. The Sako L579s were great for whitetail and haven't used them in "battle" to get them hot. Only shot them in hunting and load development. The Valmet and V-C are both 9.3X74. I have a Ruger F/S in .308 but it is one piece. Good luck with the F/S guns. I don't know why but they are as sexy as some slinky 20s something in a bikini. Being married and 65+ it is safer to enjoy the fullstock rifles. My wife shoots better than I do with handguns. Packy

[Packrattusnongratus]

I think I went off the rails there about the 9.3s. They are a different animal than the true two piece F/S Sako and solid stock Ruger. Packy

[Leatherman]

As Mike has stated, each configuration of rifle from single barrel, double barrel and 3 barrel rifles have their own reaction to barrel heat when shooting multiple shots in succession . I was responding to the subject of single barrel rifles with keyed forearms and the full manlicker stocked rifles either two piece or one piece stocks. I have found that the smaller diameter barrels or better put , thinner walled barrels heat up much faster and thus warp faster than thicker ones. I have a 8x57 JR double with petite thin barrels that despite how quickly I shoot the second barrel still shoots 3 to 4" or more apart than shooting each barrel cold . This rifle shoots a nice tight regulated group shooting each barrel cold. But my 10.5mm x47 double with heavier barrels stays in a nice 3" group at 50 yards even when the barrels are almost too hot to hold. I shoot some double rifle competition and there is a lot of shooting. As Mike pointed out all my combination guns walk emediately after shooting the first shot. But these are hunting guns and we have to accept what they are and their individual quirks. I have had problems with two single shot rifles that have keyed short forearms that would not shoot better than 3" groups at 100 yards with any bullets I tried. So I experimented first with relieving any wood to metal contact from the key forward. But that allowed the forearm to rock and this made it worse. I then glass bedded the forearm from the action to the key but it continued to walk when the barrel heated up. I finally relieved the bedded area at the key to allow the key to move foreword and backward in the barrel lug as the barrel expanded and grew in length . That brought both guns to finally shoot close to one inch groups once I found the bullet and powder they liked. Now not everyone is going to glass bed an original prewar German stalking rifle or schuetzen but I did prove some guns can be improved to shoot better in target shooting or possibly more consistent in different temperatures. If I had a two piece manlicker stocked rifle I would have to try it on the bench with the front piece removed to compare it with it on. I like to try different things with my guns to get the most I can out of them.

[sharps4590]

Hmm Leatherman. My Schuetzen rifle, a Haenel/Aydt with a keyed forearm, is as you describe, the forearm allows the key to move or rather the forearm to move around the key. I always thought it was just loose from years and miles but perhaps not? The movement is a small amount but is apparent. 'Course, the other thing is what has been done to these old rifles once they left the maker that we don't know about. At any rate, my old Schuetzen will easily hold sub MOA off a bench at 100 with boring consistency. Now if I could hold 6 MOA offhand.

[mike ford]

When all else fails, check for a crack in the stock between the recoil lug and magazine and between the magazine and trigger. This turned out to be the problem on my 9x57 Mauser. When it fired, the stock would open up slightly but close back up when barreled action was removed. After much "hair pulling" to find the problem, the fix was to route out the stock and epoxy in a machine screw to bridge the splits.
Mike

[rgsiii]

This is a prewar Bartels that has a two piece forend. There is an obvious gap between the two pieces. The Walther bolt action is post war and the direction is different than the Bartels.IMG_0055.jpg IMG_0052.jpg

[Axel E]

Imho there are other reasons for two part foreends than a means against a heated up barrel. On break - open rifles like rgsiii's Bartels a one piece foreend would be very impractical: On each disassembly of the rifle you would have to loosen a front fastening first before unlocking the foreedns latch, most often a Deeley type latch. Then you would have a very long, slim and prone to breakage part in your hands. So it is much more practical to have a normal length detachable foreend + a separate extension to the muzzle, supprted by the barrel against the risk of breakage all the time.
Other reasons existed for full stock, fixed barrel rifles: Remember, these were hunting rifles, not target or military arms. So the barrel heating up from rapid fire and multiple shots was a minor problem. But a hunting rifle in Germany may be used in very variable weather conditions: In the summer with alternating dry heat or pouring rain for hunting roebuck and red deer, in foggy, wet weather in autumn and again in wet, freezing snowstorms in winter. According to contemporary literature there was some risk of a one piece, full length foreend warping, changing pressure against the barrel and point of impact from moisture changes. Contemporary literature as early as f.i. Otto Maretsch, "Moderne Jagdwaffen", 1910, warned against this possibility of foreend warping and recommended two part foreends for full stocked rifles. BTW, the Steyr factory had another solution for the warpage problem: the foreends of Mannlicher – Schoenauer Stutzen are hollowed out and very flexible without the support of barrel, sling swivel barrel band and nosecap.
Then there is another reason for the two – piece foreends on post-WW2, comparatively cheap small bores: Long walnut blanks, suitable for full stock rifles, are much more expensive than shorter ones for half stocks. But when bandsawing a halfstock blank from a plank of timber there is always a piece left over that is waste otherwise. Why not shape this and attach it as an extension to create a "full stock"?