9.3x57R/360 reloading data and Searches????

[prewar47]

I am hoping to find reloading data for the 9.3x57R/360 here but I have never been able to complete a search in this forum and wonder what might be amiss. I get a blank window in both Safari and Firefox when I execute a search.

Anyone know a solution?
Thanks,
Dennis

[mike ford]

Dennis,
This cartridge is the metric version of the British 360- 2 1/4" and you might find data under that title. Note, however, that both the imperial and metric versions were popular for a very long time and were produced in both blackpowder and smokeless versions. You will have to match the loads you choose to the construction( ie proofing) of your rifle. This does not mean you can't use smokeless powder in a blackpowder proofed rifle( although some prefer blackpowder), but you must use appropriate loads( powder and bullet). The nitro express version of this cartridge is entirely different in power than the blackpowder version. Among different rifles( imperial, metric, blackpowder, smokeless), there are slight differences in chamber dimensions; and greater differences in barrel groove diameters. While there are other possibilities, most people use shortened 9.3x72R cases and cast bullets from .358- .369" in diameter, or similar diameter jacketed bullets ( some are lucky enough that 9.3x72R jacketed bullets will work). You should note that the somewhat popular 9.3x57 Mauser is not at all the rimless version of this cartridge and the Mauser data must not be used. That said, Cartridges of The World has some data under the British 360 2 1/4" Nitro Express and Nitro for Black. This data uses 4198, which is the "tried and true" old school powder for this type cartridges. More and more, 5744 is becoming the "go to" powder for them. You can consult the powder suppliers for suggested starting charges, the "Cast Boolits" handloading forum may be helpful.
In addition, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if one or more of our members has experience with this cartridge and step forward with suggestions.
Mike

[Axel E]

The 9.3x57R as the German version of the British .360 2 ¼" faded out of most hunting uses by the 1890s, replaced by the longer 9.3x72R. After 1900 the catalogs offered it only as a compromise option in cheap, single bite break open rifles and combinations. apparently the gunmakers did not trust such actions to use the more popular x72 version. Unlike the 9.3x72R it was never offered by the ammo factories as a "Nitro for Black" or smokeless load. It was only offered as a blackpowder load, using 3 gramm = 46 gr of BP behind various greased lead bullets from 150 to 230 gr. After WW1 the cartridge was dead as a dodo, last mentined 1934 in a list of obsolete cartridges and cases , never to be made again.
The British .360 2 ¼" on the other hand was still listed in 1920s Kynoch catalogs, in blackpowder, nitro for black and "Nitro Express" loads:
Even the NE load was quite feeble and operated at a very low pressure. It used a 300 gr metal covered bullet in front of 30 gr of an unspecified smokeless powder (not cordite!) for a mere 1650 fps.
The Nitro for black load was 22 gr smokeless behind a 190 gr metal based bullet for 1750 fps.
50 gr Blackpowder was used behind various led bullets, 155 gr HP at 1700 fps, 190 gr at 1550 fps and 215 gr at 1450 fps.
Google found these loads on the net:
23 gr 4198, 190 gr Lead for 1650 fps
I would not use this "load for modern guns", i.e. a British Nitro Express proofed one, in a German BP proofed gun: 36 gr 4198, 250 gr jacketed bullet at 1700 fps.

[fuhrmann]

Dennis

I have an Austrian single shot rifle in 9,3x57R/360 and have done some work on loads some years ago.
Wrote about rifle and loads in the Nitro Express Forum then, using the same nick "fuhrmann".
I have used reformed 9,3x72R cases, German 193 grain bullets, and as powders SR4759 and Rottweil R901.

Then there is an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader Oct/Nov 2003, and another one in German by Helmut Eller in Deutsches Waffen-Journal 4/1994.
Can send you copies by e-mail.


Axel

this rifle has Vienna BP proof dated 1896, and an additional "Eagle over N" mark from the 1940-1945 period.
With the rifle came some cases headstamped * H * 360-9,3x57.
Berdan primed, I still have them in use.
I remember that the previous owner, a friend, had these as original cartridges and used them up, they were certainly smokeless.
Possibly Hirtenberger in Austria had a smokeless load by WWII times.

fuhrmann

[prewar47]

Thanks to everyone for the all of the great historic information on the cartridge.

Fuhrmann, we have corresponded in the past and I have posted photos of the cases and the paper jacketed bullets that I developed for this cartridge as well as 70 meter target results for the 24 gr H4198 load in my Emil Kerner. My Hornady custom reloading dies give me really nice rounds.

I'm hoping to get some updated loading data that might be a bit more tested specifically for the cartridge and as you know Ross Seyfried only listed black powder for the 9.3x57R/360 in his article. I have no idea what kind of pressure is developed with the 24 grain load but my rifle is in extraordinary condition and I don't want to damage it.

I just finished loading 22 gr of H4198 with my paper jacketed 209 grain bullets and will try them early in the week. The 24 gr load gave me an average around 1,700 fps so hope for somewhere in the vicinity of 1,600 fps. A fair bit of filler is required for these loads.
Dennis Daigger

[prewar47]

I still have the dilemma of not being able to perform searches on this site. Does anyone else have this problem?
Dennis

[Fred]

It is a problem for everyone and we are trying to get it fixed.

[fuhrmann]

Fuhrmann, we have corresponded in the past and I have posted photos of the cases and the paper jacketed bullets that I developed for this cartridge as well as 70 meter target results for the 24 gr H4198 load in my Emil Kerner. My Hornady custom reloading dies give me really nice rounds.

I'm hoping to get some updated loading data that might be a bit more tested specifically for the cartridge and as you know Ross Seyfried only listed black powder for the 9.3x57R/360 in his article. I have no idea what kind of pressure is developed with the 24 grain load but my rifle is in extraordinary condition and I don't want to damage it.

I just finished loading 22 gr of H4198 with my paper jacketed 209 grain bullets and will try them early in the week. The 24 gr load gave me an average around 1,700 fps so hope for somewhere in the vicinity of 1,600 fps. A fair bit of filler is required for these loads.
Dennis Daigger

Dennis, thanks for reminding me!
Since then, I have not worked with this rifle, so nothing new from my side.

The challenges are still the same, you have to guesstimate pressures of the historic loads, and then there is no exact pressure testing possible for your new handloads

All the best
fuhrmann

[Diz]

Dennis, if you PM me with all the particulars of what you are looking to load, that is, bullet make model and weight, powder, barrel length etc. I may be able to work something up from my loading program. Thanks, Diz

[Diz]

Dennis, my old Donnelly's lists two loads, one for the 360 Nitro 2-1/4" and one for the 9.3 x 57R.

The 360 Nitro is: 250 grain lead bullet - 26.0 grains of 4198 with a velocity of 1700 fps - lists Barnes as the source.

The 9.3 x 57R is: 190 grain lead bullet - 22.0 grains of 3031 with a velocity of 2000 fps - lists the source as JD Jones.

This could be a start. Thanks, Diz

[prewar47]

Diz,
Check for PM.
Thanks,
Dennis

[Diz]

Dennis, got it and sent my personal e-mail. Thanks, Diz