BSW inquiry

[doverham]

First time poster here, though I have been enjoying this website and the newsletter for awhile.

I am looking at Berliner Suhler Waffenwerke 12 ga. and am not finding much information on these guns online, other than the company resulted from the take-over of the Simson gunmaking operations in the mid-1930s. The gun in question shows a April 1936 proof mark and bears indicators of a quality gun (cocking indicators, retaining screws, scalloped action, good coverage of scroll engraving, cross-bolt, intercepting sears). Here are a few pictures:






Subject to the rule about buy the gun and not the maker, can anyone shed light on BSW and the overall quality of their gunmaking? Did the takeover of Simson affect the quality of the guns that were subsequently produced? Any reasons why a BSW gun should be avoided (or discounted relative to a similar quality Simson)?

BTW, the two lines running across the grip from the trigger tang are supposedly dents and not cracks (so the dealer says). Obviously, they need some close inspection.

Thanks in advance for your input, Doverham.

[ellenbr]

Now that is what a German scattergun stock should look like. Straight with a long triggerguard bow. What is the tube length and overall weight(3.2 - 3.3 kg?). I assume the tube steel to be Krupp? Difficult to tell but is there a 70mm stamp on the flats or ejector faces? It is either a BSW Modell 72 or BSW Supra Flinte. BSW turned out quality stuff.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[doverham]

Thanks Raimey. The barrels are 30", chambered 70mm, choked Full and Full, and marked "Flus Stahl Krupp Essen." The overall weight is 3.3kg. Could this be a Taubenflinten (the stock dimensions seem a bit low).

Here is a better picture of the proof marks. They appear to my inexperienced eye to be correct for a 1936 gun.

[ellenbr]

So you have been following the Taubenflinten threads. I think you are spot on there, but a little less side-frame reinforcement and a sosch lighter(3,5kg). With weight and 76cm tubeset length(I assume it is a fraction over 30") I would say it is the "BSW Supra" - Flinte. With those chokes what a whale of a duck & goose gun it would make. I would put it thru an aggressive pattern regiment and see if #2s, #3s or #4s pattern best. From memory and a portion of the advert below, me thinks it would cotton to #4 shot. It may not pattern #7s as well but there are many more of them. What are the script initials just forward of the flats? Very nice.


doppelte Sicherung, welche gleichzeitig Abzüge und Stangen sperrt, Signalstifte, die anzeigen, ob sich eine Patrone im Lauf befindet, flache, erhöhte Laufschiene mit Elfenbeinkorn an der Laufmündung und kleinen Hilfskorn in der Mitte der Schiene, hervorragende Schußleistung mit Schrot 2 1/2 und 3 1/2 mm Stärke, gleichmäßige Verteilung der Schrotgarbe, 10 cm Hochschuß, Riemenbügel, Schäftung englisch ohne Backe oder mit Pistolengriff, ....

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[doverham]

Great information, Raimey - many thanks. Here is a better close up of the barrels (I don't have the gun in my possession).



I won't bother to show you what the German to English translator did with that catalog description

[ellenbr]

With your last image the script initials look to be those of W.K., Wilhelm Kelber, so that quality is going to be there for sure.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

I think what they intend to say is that accidental discharge is prevented by dual safety scears(although I don't see upper & lower scears but they may refer to the Anson-Kerner system), it has indicators that note the chamber is loaded, a flat, elevated rib with Ivory bead(korn) and mid bead and that it likes to digest cartridges loaded with 2 1/2 mm as well as 3 1/2 mm centered 10cm high(or said shot patterns well with a center of pattern 10cm high?), sling swivels in an English style stock, without cheekpiece or pistol grip.

Does that describe your potential purchase? Tell us about the rib. Is the butt chequered? For some reason those loaded indicators were common on BSW scatterguns.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[doverham]

This is really helpful - many thanks. That description is very close - there do appear to be screws for intercepting sears behind the fences (they are a little hard to make out in the photos). The butt has a hard rubber plate, rather than checkering - but I guess that may have been changed after purchase. The stock shape is also a little odd - almost a Monte Carlo. The rib is a flat elevated rib.

Those shot sizes roughly correspond with US 8.5 and something between a US 4 and 5 - so it looks like they patterned it to cover both clays and ducks!

[ellenbr]

The lower intercepting screws might be hidden by the engraving but if there are lower pins it would be more inline with a Kerner-Anson. I was just asking if the buttplate was there or not and I doubt it has been changed but is original. What is the length of pull about 14 1/2"? And is the safety automatic?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

The safety blocks both the triggers and sears.
Mike

[doverham]

I will have to check on the safety. The LOP is a bit short - 13.5".

And it appears that the gun does not have intercepting sears, there is only a screw at the top of the action, not the bottom.

[ellenbr]

I think that is typical of the BSW doubles. I don't know that there were a lot of them made but I have one in the 47k range.




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

"Not many of them made???" This is Emil Kerner's improvement on the Anson and Deeley boxlock. By relocating the sear detents from the bottom of the hammers to the rear tops, as far away from the fulcrum as possible, Kerner greatly reduced the pressure the detents have to hold. The improved leverage makes secondary intercepting sears unnecessary. Simson/BSW incorporated Kerner's top-hinged sears into their boxlocks in the 1930s. Since then these sears became the Suhl industry standard. All post-WW2 Simson and Merkel boxlocks feature Kerner's sears. Barthold's "Jagdwaffenkunde", the GDR time textbook for gunmaker apprentices, show no other boxlock design.

[ellenbr]

BSW models there Axel, BSW. Count on your fingers & toes how many BSW scatterguns you have seen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Such BSW marked shotguns aren't really rare here in Germany. Granted, most of them are in worse shape than Doverham's. And- I don't care. Simson - BSW - Simson - SAG Avtovelo - Simson - ETW - Merkel: All the same guns made to the same designs by the same men at the same factory (up to 1990). Only names and ownership changed over the years.