Commercial mauser 8x60 MMs

[Phil C]

I am now in possesion of a Mauser 98 in 8x60 mms. I posted some pictures on the Doublegun site under German guns but have not recieved much feedback yet and thought I would try here. See attached lonk for pictures.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...553#Post523553[/

It has had some modifications done to it but is still an nice rifle.
It has a Krupp barrel, double leaf sight. Double set triggers. Horn grip cap and buttplate. Weighs 7 lbs 4 oz.
Would like to learn everything I can.

[sharps4590]

Slug the bore. A lot of 8 X 60's were still .318. I have a Christoph Funk barreled action in 8 X 60 that I want to get restocked and it's .318. As Mike said, good cartridge, like an 8 X 57 only more of a good thing. Other than that I'm sorry I can't tell you any more about it.

[Phil C]

[mike ford]

Phil C,
On Double Gun Shop, you said the rifle is pre-war, and I thought you meant WW2. In fact, the rifle is pre WW1, instead. With 48xxx serial number I guess( w/o checking) it is from in or around 1909. This early, it would not have been "born" 8x60; rather it would have been 8x57I, rechambered after WW1. It was built on a single square bridge action. The majority of clawmounts on Mauser rifles are "after market", but I believe the ones on your rifle are original Oberndorf Mauser. The particular configuration of the rear one is the tell tale, and even though it was later frowned upon, early mounts were often dovetailed into the receiver ring. The Mauser engineers opined that the dovetail cut( if properly done) did not weaken the rifle significantly. When "everybody and his brother" started mounting scopes in military surplus actions, many were cut too deep, breaching the receiver into the threads. These are the ones that created the problems. If your rifle was rechambered in Oberndorf, it would have a chamber that can be used with .323" bullets, inspite of .318" groove diameter. You can check this simply. Fire a cartridge and see if a .323" bullet will easily enter the unsized neck. You should disassemble the rifle and post photos of the proof marks under the barrel and the magazine/triggers, etc. The rifle seems to have been refinished, but nicely so. Of course, it would be better if it were all original, but unless you expected to make a fortune from it, in my opinion you have a "prize". I will check again after you post new photos.
Mike
Edit,
I missed the photos except one page. I made additional comments on Double Gun, relative to rebarreling vs rechambering and a photo of serial number( if any) on the barrel.
Mike

[Phil C]

Thank you I will have another look at all markings tonight.

[Phil C]

Thank you Mike for your feedback so far. I must agree based on the reciever date by SN and the barrel date it is logical it would be a re barrel. I can not find a serial number on the barrel.

[mike ford]

Phil C.
I didn't check the date of the serial # because I wanted to cut grass and eat before the Auburn-Ark kickoff( War Eagle). I checked after the game and the number shows that that serial number came through in 1912, instead of around 1909 as I initially guessed. This clears one of the questions, that nagged at me. A 1909 rifle would have the bore diameter shown in gauge measurement, namely 172,28 in this case. A 1912 rifle would have the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter shown in mm. It is shown on this rifle as 7.8mm which would be appropriate for both 8x57I and 8x60. Some early post 1911 rifles had bore diameter in mm, but case length not shown; this has been noted with Mauser( and also Sauer) rifles. It is always difficult to evaluate a rifle based on photos only, especially if it has been refinished. Changing to 8x60 to meet the Versailles Treaty did not require rebarreling( the question of if it was required of 8x57 I as well as 8x57IS or not aside). The 8x60 S was developed specifically to allow simple rechambering without the expense of requiring a new barrel. Later, this modification was applied to the 8x57I/ 8x60 because the new cartridge had developed a good reputation and then as now, people wanted the "new toys". However, there was no legal or physical reason that a new barrel could not have been installed in 1930. In my opinion( lack of serial number on the barrel not withstanding) and understanding how someone else may differ; I believe the rifle was produced in 1912 at Mauser Werke, Oberndorf a/N, chambered for 8x57I and proof marked using mm measurement w/o case length. Any Mauser address markings on the receiver ring would have been obscured by cutting the dovetail for the front scope mount base. In 1930, it was rechambered to 8x60, in either Oberndorf or Suhl. Since the bore diameter was already correctly marked, only the case length and date were added. The case length and date seem to have been more deeply stamped which could be an indication of being marked by a different worker at a different time. This opinion is subjective enough, but is complicated by a likely refinishing. Not having the rifle "in hand" also complicates matters.
Mike

[Phil C]

Thank you Mike for sharing your thouhts on this rifle. I purchased a box of 8x60 S ammuntion and am looking forward to taking it to the range. Mike would this rifle be a model B? Barrel length is 24”.

[mike ford]

Phil C
People might refer to it as such, but they didn't really start using that system of designating models until post WW1. Let us know how the shooting works out. You might want to look into having a scope mounted, using the system on the rifle( but replacing the front dovetail plate). If so, we can help with advice.
Mike

[Phil C]

Thank you Mike. I am still learning I have hunted my whole life and even more since retirement. It has only been the last few years that I have actually started accumulating some vintage rifles. So I appreciate help from others such as yourself that help expidite my learning curve.

[Axel E]

The shape of the foreend with the rudimentary Schnabel and the sling swivel screwed through the foreend into a barrel band show the rifle started life as a full stocked commercial Mauser carbine, called Modell S after WW1. the serial number and the BU only proofmarks on the receiver ring date it to 1912. Much later it was converted to half stock and rebarreled to 8x60. It was proofed again March 1930 by the Oberndorf proofhouse. Suhl and Z-M would have marked BUGN allthe time, but Oberndorf marked BU only up to 1923, then BUG to 1934, BUGN last up to the new 1940 proofmarks. The Krupp steel and other barrel markings are unusual for a commercial Mauser barrel, but the RW = Werksrevision = factory check stamps are found on most 1930s commercial Mausers too. Most likely the rebarreling was done by a gunsmith in south-west Germany, who then submitted the rifle for proof to the nearby proofhouse at the Mauser, Oberndorf factory. Rechambering from 8x57 to 8x60 would have required reproof as the service loads changed. Merely the very slight rechambering to the normalized 8.15x46R and 9.3x72R were exempt from reproof as the service charges allowed were unchanged. A mere rechambering job would be marked with the additional crown/R repair proofmarks, with the original proof information still visible.

[mike ford]

I stand corrected.

Phil C
Take note of Axel's comments.
Mike

[Phil C]

Sharing knowledge is why many of us come to these forums. Its a poor day that we dont get to learn something new. I really appreciate the theories and feedback from each of you. I now know a fair amount more about this rifle. If there is any additional information that anyone can share it will be greatly appreciated.