1903 Steyr M/S Serial# location?

[Packrattusnongratus]

1. Where is the serial number on the 03 fullstock carbine? A number over the chamber on the barrel is 30XX. 2. Wondered if there is a serial number registry so I can determine when it was built? 3. What does the number mean under the wood - right side by the chamber? Gun is in pretty good shape for having been hunted quite a bit over the last century plus. Cleaned out a bit of copper and fouling from the barrel. It looks a lot better now. Previous owner never fired it. Still have to check on the bore size. 4. Do most of these 6.5s use 264 bullets or do many use the .267? I have soft lead RBs for the muzzleloading squirrel rifle that may be close enough to use. TIA Packy

[mike ford]

Packy,
First of all, I am not the most knowledgeable person here, concerning Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles, so my answers may be subject to error. While the same number may be on the barrel, the serial number should be on the receiver. Photos would be very helpful. I suggest it would be great to "slug" the barrel, to be sure; but I think most of the "Mannlicher" rifles that need .267-.268" bullets are the Mannlicher Carcano 6.5x52s. I understand most of the commercial Mannlicher Schoenauers have .264" barrels, while some Mod 1903 Greek MS rifles may be .268"( I understand some were made by Italian sources).
Mike

[Axel E]

Packy, several collectors tried to compile serial numbers ofpre-war Mannlicher – Schoenauer rifles. But their results are pretty confusing, especially for the M1903. Steyr apparently numbered each model of their commercial production, M1903, 05, 08, 10, 24, 25, in a separate number range, starting each with #1 again. 'To add to the confusion, all M1900 rifles were numbered with military production numbers. British gunmakers like George Gibbs most often bought in 1903 rifles from the military production with another serial number series and sporterised them to British tastes.. But if your M1903 carbine is of Steyr commercial production, there is an easy way to date it. Under the woodline, on the barrel, there must be the NPv proofmark of the Vienna proofhouse and a proofhouse ledger number, either xxx.xx or .xx. The last two digits of these numbers, behind the dot, are the year of proof. So 123.23 or .23 was proofed in 1923. If more questions remain, you should post photos of all the markings on the underside of the action. BTW, under former Austrian law, the barrel, not the action, was regarded as the essential part of a gun. So serial numbers were marked on the barrel.
Te 6.5x54 M-S was designed to use long, roundnose .264" bullets with the fast burning, high pressure Austrian monopoly powder #3. As the original bullets had long bearing surfaces and tended to slug up when fired, groove diameters were sometimes a bit wider. So stick with long 140gr up .264" bullets at first. Only if these bullets don't shoot at all or your barrel is extremely worn, you may try larger Carcano bullets too. But slug your bore before doing so! Short, pointed bullets will not work in the 1903 magazine anyhow.

[Packrattusnongratus]

So 30xx from the top of the barrel over the chamber should be the serial number? Then was the 03 made alongside the 05 which would have its own set of serial numbers instead of a consecutive number system? My questions may be confusing, but I'm trying to better understand these guns.

[Axel E]

No, pre-WW2 Mannlicher – Schoenauers were not numbered conscutively. Each model, that is chambering up to the M1924, had it's own number series. M 1903s even came in two different, unrelated numbering systems, thatof the commercial production and another of the military production line. Sometimes military numbered parts slipped into the civilian production. Often importers like Gibbs or Sequoya added their own serial number. B prefix serial numbers point to G.Gibbs, Bristol, while military serial numbers may or may not have a letter suffix. Sequoya marked their own number on top of the barrel reinforce. Post-WW1 rifles have the serial number on the right side of the receiver ring most often. But on my 1919 proofed M1905 the serial number is covered by the wood.
Please,take your rifle apart and post or send photos of ALL marks and numbers on top, left, right and bottom. Don't forget photos of the action area, left and right. With your vague descriptions only I am unable to help.
Some examples:
My 1905 dated M1903 G.Gibbs sporter has the miliary # 10156, Gibbs # B 4842
1919 proofed M1905 is # 3788
1927 proofed M1924 is # 299
1934 proofed M1925 is # 3233
1936 proofed M1903 is # 23979 (commercial #)
1937 proofed M1910 is # 11400
1951 proofed M1950 is # 3092
1957 proofed "Magnum" is # 22638
This answer is confusing too, isn't it?
All in all, Steyr made about 2,000 Model 1900 (almost all military), 28,000 commercial Model 1903, 7,000 Model 1905, 18,000 Model 1908, 12,000 Model 1910, less than 1,000 Model 1924, 6,000 Model 1925 and 61120 post-WW2 Mannlicher-Schoenauers. Additionally, Steyr made about 340000 M1903 Greek militaryrifles and carbines, including "parts" that were assembled by Breda, Italy in the 1920s.

[Packrattusnongratus]

So do I need to get a book to get data? I have a question which seems answered by the above data
. When were the models produced, beginning and end to see how they overlapped each other or perhaps not. For instance the 03 proofed in '36. Was that reproofed after the annexation by Hitler or was that a current production of an 03? I appreciate your sharing of hard earned data.

[Axel E]

There is no book with reliable M-S data. M1900 production ended when M1903 started, though some remaining parts may have been used up. Production of the popular 6.5x54 M1903 ended in WW2, like all pre-war M-S production. Known to me numbers 25338 to 25711 are marked "Made in Germany", so they were made after the "Anschluss"/annexation in 1938. The M1905 in 9x56 apparently ended about 1930. My #3788 was proofed 1919 and is about in the middle of the known serial number range. The 8x56 M1908 apparently ended in the 1930s too, as no "Made in Germany" examples are known. The 9.5x57 M1910 was made at least to 1937. The .30-06 M1924 Sequoia model was made for a very short time only. The M1925 in 7x64, .30-06, 8x60, 9.3x62 and 10.75x68 was made until all production stopped in WW2, many "Made in Germany" examples known. So production of all pre-war models overlapped most of the time.

[Packrattusnongratus]

Thanks so much Axel E. It's what I was wondering about. Not concerned about value with the earlier serial number as it is well worn. But it is honest wear. The open sights look good until you get aging eyes. I'm going to use them for a bit, familiarize myself with the whole gun and how it shoots. Then try to get a peep sight put on. the cocking piece sight seems like the thing to use. Maybe with a taller post front sight. I don't think there is much chance of finding a claw mount to go on the bases on the gun. I do have an older looking Karl Kahles 25MM scope that would maybe look like it fits with the gun's architecture. Thanks again. PACKY

[mike ford]

Packy,
If you don't mind drilling/tapping the receiver, Redfield made mount bases for the MS at one time. I used to have a set, but let them go. A very good friend needed them. I think Williams may have made side mounts too, but I never saw one. Claw mounts are still available, but require fitting by someone that knows how and would be expensive. Maybe you can kind Redfield bases "on line".
Mike

[Packrattusnongratus]

I'm a dinosaur as to computers and tech. Sorry to not put a photograph in here. I think I have spent a modest price on this gun and may have to get it to an M/S smith. I have chosen one to talk with in Illinois who comes recommended. The missing mounts may be useable. I think the Kahles is in good condition if a mount can be utilized. The chamber needs checked and I have thought up a few other things. I'm probably saying it again but this forum has been particularly willing to offer knowledge. Thanks again.
Packy