Combination shotgun rifle w/bayonet by Grundig

[12mm]

Hi everyone. I found a strange pinfire combination rifle shotgun w/bayonet.

As you can see in the images, the toe of the but plate is marked with a "G O" with a number below that, above the G O there appears to have been some other marking that has been rubbed out over time.

The barrel rib is marked "Grundig in Dresden" It has a rod bayonet under the barrels. In the image the bayonet is fully extended. Left barrel is rifled and it's about 15mm or .50 cal. The right barrel is smooth bore of about 24 ga. The rifled barrel is marked with crowned R G and U over the number 35. smooth bored barrel marked crowned R S and U over the number 22 next to a circled 24. I suppose then, it's a 24 ga. pinfire shotgun next to a 15mm pinfire rifle barrel.

It's notable that the gun has no engraving or checkering although it is of excellent quality workmanship. Because of the markings on the toe of the butplate I'm wondering if it was made for military, police or some other institutional use? I wonder if the G might stand for Gendarmerie? But it's only a guess.

Thank you in advance for any information you have to share.

Grundig 1.jpg

Grundig 2.jpg

Grundig 3.jpg

Grundig 4.jpg

[mike ford]

12mm,
I agree, this is certainly an unusual gun. I am not certain the device below the barrel is a bayonet. A rod bayonet typically has a point on the business end, but this one seems to be blunt. Also , it doesn't seem especially robust, as it would have to be to survive in battle. On the other hand, I have not yet found an alternate use. The markings on the butt plate, do seem to follow the format used by the military during the time period to identify the unit, the rifle was issued to. Maybe, as a quasi military organization, the Grenzeschutz( border protection or guard) could have use a similar system. This would give a possible explanation of the letter "G". Could you post additional photos, especially of the proof marks. As a pinfire rifle, it would be expected to predate the early 1893 date of the beginning of the proof law. In any case, proof marks were normally not applied to issue government rifles( they may have been applied to civilian rifles bought for issue to troops, or sold to other governments, post WW1). If the "R" in the crown R is not a worn "B", the rifle seems to have been re-proofed or voluntarily proofed, post 1893. The circled 24 would indicate a chambering for 24 ga shells( the gun indicates them to be pinfire). A 22 next to the 24 could indicate a 22 ga(15.14mm) bore diameter ahead of the chamber( note the numbers seem to be reversed). The 35 on the rifle barrel could indicate a bore( not groove or bullet) diameter of 35 ga or 12.95mm. I haven't found a 15 mm pinfire cartridge that fits, but will keep looking. Maybe someone else has better information.
Mike

[12mm]

Hello Mike, thank you for your observations. The bayonet has a three sided point which is like the point. The point of this bayonet reminds me of the rod bayonets on the last of the trapdoor Springfield 45-70 service rifles... Sorry my photo was not all that clear.

Attached is an image of the proof marks on the breach end of the barrels. The smooth bore is on the viewers left.

I might add that although the gun appears to have been carried around dry fired many times both bores are shiny and bright as new.

The 15mm rifle breach is a little odd in another way; The breach is recessed for a rimmed cartridge. Those 15mm shells I have seen images of did not have rims.

Grundig 5.jpg

[Diz]

Surprising number of 15mm pin fire cartridges out there. Here is a link to a site with a lot of photos and some information. http://freemycollection.com/?page=li...fire&size=15mm

Interesting gun and pinfire cartridges for the shotgun are fairly easy to make. Diz

[mike ford]

12mm,
The photo clearly shows a crown R, as you reported. This is the mark used to show significant work has been performed, I refer to this mark as a "Repair proof" even though it covers modifications as well. With your statement that there seems to be a rim recess in the rifle barrel, I wonder if it has been converted to rimfire, something like 12.7x44 Remington (Norway/Sweden). I can't tell much from the photos, but the hammers don't seem to have been converted to centerfire, it wouldn't take nearly as much to convert a pinfire to rimfire. Do you think you could post better photos of the hammers and the breach area. A 35 ga( 12.95mm) bore diameter is a little bit large for a 12.7mm cartridge, but older rifles were often made with oversize barrels. The "3" seems to be a little mismarked, could you verify it is 35. The rifle barrel being on the left is a little unusual for a German gun. We often see Belgian and English combination guns with the rifle on the left, but in German and Austrian guns they are most often on the right. The 12.7x44 RF( and 12.17x42 RF) was popular enough that it was later loaded in a centerfire version and many rifles were converted. The German proof marks had to be applied after Mar.1893. If it was originally made and issued in Belgium, the "G" on the butt plate might be for "Gendarmerie"? instead of "Grenzeschutz" after all. Maybe someone with a little more knowledge will weigh in.
Mike

[12mm]

Grundig 7.jpg

Grundig 6.jpg

It looks like I will have some work cleaning off the hardened grease on the breach face. As you can see, there is no indication of a conversion of any kind. It was built as a pinfire and that's how it remained. The little projections above each breach are supports for the pinfire pins when the breach is closed.

An additional odd thing; It has blind holes drilled into the action in back of the place each pin sticks out. Those holes don't connect with anything inside the action. My theory is that maybe a removable block was held in place by the two holes which would block the hammers and thus prevent accidental discharge or maybe a dry firing attachment?

If this gun spent any time in Belgium, as you can see it did so without Belgian proof marks. Only the German proofs are present.

So, sometime after 1893 someone contracted with a commercial arms maker to produce this gun chambered for pinfire cartridges.

I was thinking about the smooth bore being on the right instead of the left. If this was made for law enforcement or for prison guards, the smooth bore barrel might have been intended to hold a charge of tear gas. Presumably, the prison would encourage the guards to fire tear gas before killing prisoners with live bullets. But that's only a theory at this point.

As requested I double checked the 3 in 35 under magnification. It still looks more or less like a three, it's possible that it was miss-struck somehow but it looks like a 3 at this point.

[mike ford]

12mm,
I have never seen this type arrangement in a pinfire, but admittedly I have had very little experience with them, almost none. I can see how the notched projections would stabilize the "pins", but the others I have seen relied on a small notch at the rear of the barrel to perform that function. Other guns are often labeled "Roux action", but with my limited experience, this one looks like it really is a "Roux action" type. Since you confirmed the 35, I don't think it is 15mm, either pin or rim fire. Instead, it is 35 ga(12.95mm) bore(not groove or bullet)diameter. Since my advice has been pretty much worthless, maybe Axel's friend "Flinten Kalle"(?) can be encouraged to address this gun. I agree the gun doesn't have recognizable Belgian or French proof marks , but they( as well as Germany)manufactured guns before proof laws required specific marks. The "F" on the receiver may point to the maker. The German Repair proof would not have been applied to a new gun. It would only have been applied to a previously existing gun( whether previously proofed or not) if it was brought in after "repair", "modification", or maybe for voluntary proof.
Mike