16 X 16 over 9.3 X 72

[ellenbr]

Raimey,
For instance, what is "Startstahl"?

In this specific case of the subject hammer drilling, I don't see where you get Startstahl? From the verbiage & the image below it is Startlauf. Your post coupled with other info further supports my point that the mechanic applying the verbiage didn't understand German either, i.e. a Belgian craftsman.






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Raimey,
You are right, the word they used is "Startlauf', I was typing from memory-as poor as that is. I think the word would be Stahllauf. The Belgians, especially those dealing closely with Germans, were likely better with German than I am.
Mike

[Axel E]

Raimey, exactly what I wrote. The inscription on the Belgian gun reads: AMTLICH VIERFACH GEPRUEFT U. EINGESCHOSSEN // - MIT STAERKSTER LADUNG RAUCHLOSEN PULVERS -. This is perfect German, though in contemporary, now outmoded phrases, and translates into modern language: officially proofed four times (or to 4times stress) and test fired (=patterned) // - with strongest load of smokeless powder- . Apparently this Belgian gun was intended for the German market. Remember, until the "Nitro" stamps were introduced 1911-12, there was no hint in the proofmarks legible by an ordinary hunter if a gun was suitable for the then often violent early smokeless powders. You will find very similar descriptions in early mailorder catalogs like 1911 Stukenbrok, 1908 Burgsmueller or 1910 AKAH. This Belgian inscription is not comparable to the doubtful Belgian "trade gun" inscriptions like "Schmit & Wesson, New York" on the rib of a Liege proofed copy of the S&W Russian revolver in .44 Henry rimfire, or the "WAU?ER" trademark found on Chinese C96 pistols. BTW, in the photo of the "Emil v.Nordheim" drilling I don't read a "rt" of any sort, but "STAHLLAUF" with the "H" slightly out of line and stamped unevenly, partly worn as the rest of the inscription. If you insist on "rt", the inscription would be "STArtLLAUF", a mixing of letters that really startles me, even if it is a Belgian gun.

[ellenbr]

Oh, I don't read it "rt" either but I was quoting the advertiser in his reading of Stahllauf. Below is a DUCO/Dumoulin & Cie, Belgium sourced for the German market with Amtlich Rauchlos Erprobt



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Below is a DUCO/Dumoulin & Cie, Belgium sourced for the German market with Amtlich Rauchlos Erprobt

This is again perfect German, translates to "officially smokeless proofed". "Amtlich" in German means "by a government institution", here: By the proofhouse. Same comments apply as to the above, "Amtlich vierfach geprüft.." inscription. About the possibility of a Belgian gunsmith stamping nonsense "German" on a gun: Liege is only about 25 miles from the German border, 10 miles from the French/Flemish language divide. Many gunmakers there were of German origin,like Pieper, Neumann. So there was no excuse for applying "faked German" inscriptions on guns.

[ellenbr]

Quid pro quo there Axel as it exists on sporting weapons as I have seen it with my own eyes so how did it get there? To blow it off isn't the answer as there is a reason.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Raimey, what have you seen with your own eyes? The examples you have shown so far for "Faked German" inscriptions on Belgian guns are both correct and understandable German.
Such inscriptions advertizing the suitability for smokeless loads on Belgian guns intended for the German market makes a lot of sense to me. We are constantly answering questions on this forum and others, or by email, like "where, when and for what load was my gun proofed? What does this little lion over PV mean."
Apparently precious few people are able to read proofmarks even today! It was not better in the good old days. And: The Belgian proofmarks, valid in Germany too, did not show a familiar symbol over/under N mark nor the word Nitro, only little lions with cryptic letters like EC, SCH, PT or PV. So some Belgians or German importers felt the need to make it clear to their clientele that the new gun was indeed suitable for modern smokeless loads.
BTW, there was indeed a shotgun proof in Belgiun from 1924 - 1968 called fourfold, the marks were a crowned EL with laurel branches for treble bp proof of the barrels and a crown over PV for a higher than usual smokeless pressure load.