Looking for scope base information

[prewar47]

I recently purchased a 1930's Merkel combination gun that has dovetail scope bases and it appears that the rings use levers to secure the scope. I know claw systems were most common but I'm hoping someone might have photos of rings for this set up. I will be making rings and bases with or without knowing specifically what the Merkel items looked like but I'd like it to be as time authentic as possible.

I have a 6x Zielvier and a 22mm 2 3/4x Ziel-Dialyt and haven't decided for sure which I'll use but probably the Ziel-Dialyt.

Thanks for any help that is offered.

Dennis Daigger

Here are some photos of the bases.

[mike ford]

Dennis,
I have seen your work on another forum, whatever you come up with would look great. This type base is easier to deal with than claw mounts. Some people modify existing Rings like Ruger or CZ. To get a useable eye relief, you may have to use extended ring or rings. The bases have built in recoil stops, so a simple clamp should hold the rings, or you could make a lever release by milling a flat on one side of the screw, to release it from the radius in the base. I'm pretty excited to see what you come up with. If you want a one piece , you could make it like the one on your 25-35 Martini, scaled to look right. The Zielvier should be 4X, a 6X should be a Zielsechs - I think. Whichever power it is, it is the one to use on the Merkel( my opinion only).
Mike

[prewar47]

Thanks for your input, Mike. You are correct that the Zielvier is the more appropriate scope for a Merkel but the Hensoldt is very compact and just right to drop into a pocket.

Surprisingly claw rings on my Zielvier are spaced precisely at the right distance to go on the Merkel and the eye relief is also correct. I think that if I milled the claws off and then cut dovetails in the 'stubs' that screws with levers could be made to secure the scope in position. I would lose the see-through feature to the iron sights but I've never been fond of the high scope positioning needed to accommodate that anyway. This sounds way to easy and straight forward, I think.

Still hoping to snag some photos of a 'real' setup on a Merkel.

By the way, my scope is #53347. Anyone know how to date these?
Dennis

[mike ford]

Dennis,
Regarding which scope to use, this is your rifle and your project, so you get to do what you want. I have hunted regularly for almost 50 years with claw mounted scopes on various drillings and other combination guns. In all that time, I never used a so called "see-through" feature on any of them. My opinion has always been that they are more useful to save weight, than sighting. The "high scope" position with claw mounts is not really to accommodate any see through feature; instead it is to allow "tipping" the scope to install or dismount the scope, without the objective bell hitting the barrel. My hesitation on the Hensoldt was not at all because it is a Hensoldt( I have several, myself); rather it was because of the magnification and tube/ objective lens diameter. I am from the "form follows function" school and look for the highest magnification I can get and still have a 7mm exit pupil. If that is 4x, then when necessary, I can see at 40 meters what ever I can see at 10 meters with my naked eyes. If 6x, then 60 meters and if 8x, then 80meters. Sometimes, after sitting 3 or 4 hours, this makes the difference of being able to take the shot or not. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you can execute your idea for the mount in an outstanding manner, and I am looking forward to seeing the finished result. Axel or someone else might be able to post some photos to help you.
Mike

[Axel E]

My 1919 Zella - Mehlis proofed "Robert Hübner, Darmstadt" 9.3x74R double rifle has very similar bases:

They workperfectly with Talley rings (now with qd levers) and an old Weaver K2.5 scope.

Just a warning: don't try to use rings that are merely form fitted to the bases and locked in place by excentrical cams. Such rings should always have one side solid and the other one loose, clamping against the dovetail. Merely form fitted slide on rings soon get worn and loose any accuracy.

[chapmen]

In origin this are bases for the "Krieghoff Aufschub Montage", "Krieghoff push on mount" (?), here on an Krieghoff "Semper" Drilling from 1939:

[prewar47]

Thanks, Chapmen, the photos are quite helpful. I have a one-piece two-lever AKAH mount that I'm using on a project gun and the levers look identical to the lever in your photo. Do you have a side view of the ring with the windage adjustment?

Axel and Mike-again, thanks for your insight. There is a Hensoldt Zieljagd on eBay that has a dovetail mount and it looks like it could be a good fit. I have reconditioned enough of these scopes that I'm not too concerned that the rings might have to be repositioned but they would have to be a close fit to my bases to be of interest. It is an expensive scope and I haven't been able to get additional photos to help me determine whether it is suitable.
Dennis

[chapmen]

The right choice would be an Zielvier or Zielsechs for an Merkel of this kind.

Here is an set of pics from my Schmidt&Habermann Drilling with this type of mount, scope is an "Landlicht" 4x
If you need pics of details- let me know.

[chapmen]

[mike ford]

Dennis,
Not having experience with type mount, I paid particular attention to Axel's statement that you should not depend on only the eccentric to lock the scope in place. To this end, I offer the following: If you make the "feet" thin enough to "spring" inward ( or provide a relief groove) and a right hand thread on one end of the "lever" shaft, with a left hand thread on the other end. The thread on the lever side would need to be larger than the shaft by at least the double depth of the thread, and the "off side" end would need to be smaller by the same amount. Of course, both threads should be the same pitch. While you could "single point" the threads on the shaft, it may be a "trick" to find taps for the inside threads. This seems like a lot of work, but it would result in good amount of movement for a small turn of the lever. Also it would result in an elegant solution to the problem.
Mike

[Leatherman]

It amasses me that there aren't more of these rings on scopes available on EBay . As I see combination guns with this mount used on many guns. I use Talley or Ruger rings and mount a 1" scope on my guns but being the tinkerer I am I have been thinking of making a lever mounted ring as the originals. I would make it squeeze to the base as Diz refers to. I believe these bases have a taper to them to allow easier mounting of the rings at the rear and widen at the front. I have not had the oppurtunity to examine original rings to see if they are also tapered to match the base. If you use an original era scope you have to incorporate a horizontal adjustment which puts the scope way high for my liking There is a way to make a low profile scope ring mount that will still allow a horizontal adjustment but it wouldn't be pretty or original so your better off going original and deal with the high mount or go modern clamp on rings and a scope with internal horizontal adjustments. I totally understand wanting to keep it all original but you sure can get a lot wrapped up in work and expense on a quality scope in good condition.

[Tom H.]

I made this type of mount for a a few years ago. From what I recall, the fit is critical in a few spots.
The dovetail on the ring has to be fairly tight as the properly fitted dovetail not only removes lateral movement, but it drives the base against the mount (and recoil stop) to remove vertical movement. Once things start moving, things work themselves loose.

The levers shouldn't act as a recoil stop but should be there to keep the scope from falling off.
both mounts have a built in stop (with a downward angle built in ), when the lever is turned the shaft keeps the front of the ring against the stop and the recoil keeps it there.

When the gun is fired the scope tries to move forward. If the levers were used as a stop, the rounded shaft should actually try to push the scope up in recoil and the mounts should loosen in time.

When I made a set of rings and mounts, the first bases had a recoil stop (in picture) that was too thin and they actually sheared off. I made another set correctly and I never bothered making levers as the optics just don't move.

1437131348169.jpg

They are attached to a 20ga cape gun that I regulated for slugs. If I had to do it again, I would have used an extension ring to increase the ring spacing.

Cheers
Tom

[prewar47]

Great photos, Chapmen. That is just the detail that I was looking for. I can see that the claw rings that I had hoped to modify will not work because there is not sufficient metal below the windage adjustment screw to accommodate the lever screw. It looks like I'll have to make them and your photos provide all the detail I need. It appears that the basic foundation for a detachable ring system whether claw or dovetail was the same and that either claws or dovetails were milled at the bottom.

Thank you again for taking the time to help me.
Dennis

[prewar47]

Mike,
The AKAH mount I'm using on the Martini should give me the thread size and pitch specs I'll need. It appears from the excellent photos that Chapmen has posted that AKAH made his rings also. As you can see from the attached photos on the Martini barrel there are no stops. Because of the low recoil of the cartridge they didn't seem necessary and would have greatly increased the effort of making the bases. Indexing occurs from the rotation of the eccentric on the rear lever screw as it centers in the base cut. The fit of the dovetails is quite tight so the issue that Axel raises is minimized when the clamping occurs. When the levers are tightened the scope is pulled down tight against the top of the bases.

I haven't shot the setup yet so might be some unpleasant surprises in store.
Dennis

[chapmen]

No problem, if you need more, let me know..........