Acorn ?

[John]

I picked up a neat pre-war sporter built for the trade on a circa 1911/1912 Mauser 98 commercial action. I was drawn to it by the beautifully figured walnut buttstock, which has a LOT of drop to it. It is very typical in all aspects except for the somewhat less typical Triebel montage (pardon my spelling) rear scope base (scope is missing), and a number stamped in the right side of the buttstock, next to a small acorn ! The acorn is "upside down" (cap - with stem - is on the bottom, with the seed end on top). The acorn is 5/16" tall, then just to the right of this is the number 1682. All numbers are approx. 1/8" high, and the entire number/acorn marking is 1" long. The distance from the top of the numbers to the interface of the buttstock/horn buttplate is 1/2". What on earth could this acorn & number mean ? Any insights/opinions would be greatly appreciated !!!!!!

Thanks !

John

[mike ford]

John,
Can you post photos of your rifle? Especially interesting would be photos of the numbers/markings you mentioned, as well as all the proof marks and overall photos. Most importantly, see if you can find a small eagle stamp ( Imperial acceptance stamp) on the barrel somewhere ahead of the receiver ring. It would have to be verified, but it is possible you have a very interesting rifle. It will be necessary to see if a letter is associated with the number on the stock and ID the upside down "Acorn". I call your attention to Axel's article, entitled "Militarized Sporting Rifles" in Issue #47, Winter 2011, of WAIDMANNSHEIL. If you don't have a copy, the "bookstore" may have one in stock : sales@germanguns.com.
Mike

[John]

When I first noticed the numbers stamped in the stock, my mind immediately went to Axel's article ! Unfortunately, there is no letter (D) prefix, just that very "unofficial looking" acorn. No eagle stamp. The proofs are typical of the 1912 (pre war) era. ie: Crown N, bore diameter in mm (7.8, if I recall), and I think the case length (57 mm). No date/ledger numbers.IMG_9614.jpg

I tried to upload the picture, but I don't think it worked. (If not, I'll try again.)

Thanks guys !

John

[John]

Wow - I did it ! Here are a few more...IMG_9609.jpgIMG_9616.jpgIMG_9611.jpgIMG_9613.jpgIMG_9615.jpg

It's not a heavy gun, so that fact - along with the severe drop to the buttstock - makes it kick like a beast ! I'll have to reload if I want less punishing loads, but the groups will probably not hit anywhere near where the sights are pointing. The 220 grain Hawk bullets, loaded by Superior Ammo hit pretty close to point of aim, but the group wasn't as tight as the 200 grain Woodleighs. All in all, not bad seeing that the bore is FAR from pristine...)

Any ideas on the acorn & number ? I figured Axel would have a theory.

[mike ford]

John,
The lack of the Imperial acceptance stamp, I think, pretty much indicates the rifle is not one of those pressed into service. Until we find out what it is, I would hesitate to say for sure what it isn't. Both my rifle and Trisl's were marked by the Prussian Kaiserlich Marine, hence the crown and KM. I have no idea how the other states and services marked theirs. Maybe Axel will know or be able to find out. I do know the Acorn is an often used symbol in some of the German states forestry services, but don't know if that is a clue. The lack of a date indicates proof by the Suhl Proof House, as does the lack of ledger number( if it had been dated). You might be able to get some relief from the felt recoil by using a "lace on" cheek piece. To try it out before buying one, you might tape something onto the comb and shoot it. A "lace on" wouldn't modify the rifle. In my opinion you have a nice rifle.
Mike

[John]

I will definitely get one of those cheek pieces.

Thanks Mike !

PS: I purchased a box of Remington and Winchester factory loads (8x57) when I bought the gun, but I was hesitant to use them. Is it true that our ammo here (in this caliber) is loaded light enough to not be dangerous in guns like mine ?

[Axel E]

The only use of such an acorn on German guns & ammo known to me: An acorn was an early trademark, sice 1909, of Gustav Genschow, Geco, an ammo maker and wholesaler. So, at this time, I take it as a Geco warehause registration number. As Genschow bought in guns from several sources, using the serial numbers of the different makers for book keeping would have been difficult.
BTW, that scope mount is not a Triebelmontage as made by Albert wilhelm Triebel, Suhl. The Triebelmontage has four slots in the rear base. Instead, this distinctive rear base seems to be a hint to the real maker of the rifle. It is shown in R.Mahrholdt's "Waffenlexikon". It's a claw mount variation made by the famous riflemaker A.Schüler, Suhl. Take the rifle apart and look for all the marks under the barrel. Schüler made many bolt action rifles for the international guntrade. Recently I was shown an "English" rifle in .404 Jeffery, with some "Suhl" flavours. On the Barrel outside it has the W.J.Jeffery, London address and London proofmarks. Hidden under the barrel there are Suhl proofmarks and an A.Schüler, Suhl inscription. So it was made in Suhl for Jeffery, a proof for Jeffery collaborating with Schüler once.
The American, SAAMI spec., "8mm Mauser" loads are underloaded to be safe not only in 98 actioned 8x57I rifles, but also in M88 rifles with thin military barrels. I would not hesitate to use them in this rifle.

[John]

Thanks Axel !

I went on the German Hunting Guns website and found a lengthy article about G. Genschow, and there it was - an acorn that looked much like mine ! The picture caption indicated that it was the mark for a brand of ammo that they made/marketed. NEAT !!!!

I don't think there are any Schuler marks on the underside of the barrel. There are the last four digits of the serial number, an elongated horizontal "H" with a star, and then Flussstahl Krupp Essen (all on the bottom flat). On a side flat, there is a crown, a crown over N, and the bore "size" of 7.8 mm.

On the underside of the receiver, there are TWO sets of the crown and crown over N marks (why two sets ???) on the receiver ring, and a service charge marking that reads (from memory) 2.67 gr. GBP. which is underlined, and under the line is merely SG (again, from memory). I assume the bottom letters are for the bullet type, but I am used to seeing three or four letters (like St.MG, or something akin to that) to designate the bullet type. (Any ideas ?) Underneath the flat portion of the receiver, there is the serial number (51120, again from memory), a Gothic capital letter "B" and six or so small letters/marks that I assume are from Mauser when they made is as a commercial action.

Is serial number 51120 circa 1912 ?


If only I still had the original scope that was on it ! That would help my tired eyes, as the iron sights are a real bear for me to use...

Thanks again to all - any other comments would be greatly appreciated !

Sincerely,

John

[sharps4590]

Your rifle is quite similar to my Strover Mauser. If I read your posts correctly yours also has the .318 groove diameter? I don't know whether or not it's something you'd like to pursue but what I usually do is work up a cast bullet load that shoots close to the sights. Sometimes it takes a bit of juggling to come up with a load that shoots to the sights but usually it can be accomplished. All depends on how much work you want to put into it. You can make or perhaps purchase a sizing die that will allow you to take jacketed .323 bullets down to .320-.319 which opens up a lot of possibilities in regard to different bullet weights and getting the rifle to shoot to the sights.

Unless you are loathe to do so, that teeny, tiny notch in the rear sight can be easily opened up with a set of needle files. A little cold blue and the rear sight blade looks as if it were made that way. Can't imagine it would hurt anything and it CERTAINLY helps!!! That allows more light around the front sight and makes it a lot easier for older eyes to get a good sight picture. A dab of white out on the front sight or, some other color to provide contrast helps as well.

[John]

Yes, it is .318.

My only concern with cast bullets is the rather rough surface of the grooves. Will such a bore make cast bullets deposit a lot of lead ?

You are SO RIGHT about the rear sight notch being tiny ! I will definitely take your advice on that !


These guns sure are neat !


Thanks !

[sharps4590]

Plain based cast bullets would probably leave a lot of deposits. I don't know if gas checked bullets would. I shoot gas checked in some less than pristine bores with no difficulties. Even if some lead is deposited a few rounds of jacketed bullets cut it out easier than any cleaning method I know of.

I think I've had to open the rear sight notch on every German or Austrian rifle I own. Frankly, I don't know if I could have used those original tiny notches when my eyes were 20 rather than 65. I've had to widen the rear sight notches on my muzzleloaders as well, as I've added candles to the cake. Works for me, I can still head shoot squirrels offhand at 35 yards with my 36 cal. flintlock.

And....YES!!! Those ARE absolutely wonderful rifles!!

[John]

We sound like kindred souls... A 36 cal flintlock has been on my wish list for a while ! I started off with a 50 cal flintlock many decades ago, and that type of gun/shooting will always be dear to me.


Good shooting to you, sir ! Keep your powder dry !

[sharps4590]

I've had a 32 or 36 flinter since I was in my late 20's. Probably sometime in my late 30's I settled on the 36 for no reason other than I simply liked it better than the 32's. Ain't no fly's on either.

Thank you John and the same to you!!