6.3X48R cape gun

[Leatherman]

I have snagged a nice little SxS cape gun last week. It came with dies and 100 Winchester 25/35 brass. It is chambered in 20 gauge and 6.3X48R Bore size .257”. I sized the brass down and trimmed to length and am now ready to load. I ordered Hornady 25 caliber 110 grain FTX and 117 grain SST bullets to try for whitetail hunting and I have some 130 grain cast bullets coming for shooting steel targets hopefully this October at the Stalking rifle shoot in Rabbit Hash Ky. Yes they are having a cape gun/ Drilling target with clay birds to shoot as well. Anyway does anyone have any experience with this cartridge and can give me suggestions on a starting point with powder for these bullets? The cartridge is about 1/8” shorter than the 25/35 and now has a taper instead of the shoulder so the case capacity is a little less than the 25/35.
I also would like to know about the names on the barrel as I do not recognize any of them. KELBER u ZWIELICK, GEWENRFAB, DANZIG u SUHL on barrel.

[Leatherman]

More pictures

[Leatherman]

The bottom picture shows one of my magnetic scope mounts I make for my cape and double rifles. I will paint the aluminium base black later. Who says you cant scope a combination gun cheaply?

[Axel E]

The 6.5x48R was cosidered marginal for roe deer in Germany. So I think it is sub – marginal for use on your larger white – tailed deer. The cartridge was obsolescent, "available as stocks last", by 1933. The original ballistics: 127 gr jacketed bullet, 23 gr R5, 2156 fps. Rottweil #5 was a smokeless flake powder. Burning rate was a bit faster than 4064, but slower than 3031. I often substituted it with the same weight of VV N140 for a starting load.
Kelber & Zwielich was a gunshop in Danzig (since 1945 Gdansk, Poland), Dominikswall 8, existed at last 1910 – 1930. Obviously they had a mailbox address in Suhl too, like many other country gunmakers. Maybe one of the 10 Kelbers then active in the Suhl guntrade? Many country gunshops called themselves "Waffenfabrik" = gun factory then, though they had just a small shop of their own, doing repairs.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
As you stated the bore diameter of your rifle is .257" and you are using .257" bullets, I am a little confused as to whether you "slugged" the barrel or if the previous owner provided the info. The 6.3 in the proof mark is the bore( not groove or bullet diameter) diameter and is not the nominal title of the cartridge. You referred to it as 6.3x48R but Axel correctly called it 6.5x48R. This is one of those 6.5mm cartridges whose normal bullet diameter is not a current standard. The common bullet for this cartridge was .260-.262" in diameter. Consequently, the nearest, but not oversized, standard bullet diameter is .257". The smaller bullet sometimes gives acceptable groups in some rifles, and in others it doesn't. If a rifle doesn't like .257" bullets, the answer is to size .264" bullets to whatever diameter the barrel's groove diameter demands. If you weren't the one that "slugged" the barrel, I suggest you do so( from previous correspondence I know you can do this). I never "look behind" Axel's data, but a 127gr bullet at 2156 fps is more in line with 6.5x58R. The ballistics in Cartridges of The World for 6.5x48R are noted as being Blackpowder loading and Axel quoted smokeless components as would be proper for your rifle. A quick search of my limited data failed to reveal a maximum allowable pressure for 6.5x48R, so if it were my rifle I would limit my loads to less than 2500 bar (36259 psi) (cup) limit for the 6.5x58R. This is in recognition of the seemingly modern design and condition of your rifle but no indication of firing pin size or type. I believe Axel can provide a better pressure limit( in units of pressure that will match the common computer program) for 6.5x48R( or if necessary, for 6.5x58R). I believe you have a very "fun" project for the summer. Good luck.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, don't believe all the b-s written in COTW or Ammo E. on German cartridges! The 6.5x48R never was a black powder cartridge, nor were the 6.5x27R, 6.5x58R, 7x72R or 8x72R,btw. I found the above load data in the 1934 DWM handbook "Patrone und Schuss". Yes, the then 6.5x48R load was slightly faster than the DWM 6.5x58R load with the same 8.2 g = 126.5 gr, 27.8 gr W1919 powder at 2116 fps. The 1940 RWS handbook did not list the 6.5x48R any more, but the same load like DWM for the x58R at 2000 at. It listed this load for the 6.5x58R also: a 96 gr D-jacket, 31.6gr R5 at 2585 fps, 2300 at pressure, The earlier, 1920s, Steigleder catalog listed the 6.5x48R with a 103.4 gr steel jacket bullet, 23 gr R5 at 2093 fps and the 6.5x58R with a 126.5 gr bullet, 26 gr 39 at 2182 fps.

[Leatherman]

Mike, you are right in questioning the bore size. I did slug the barrel and I got .257" as the groove size. I called it a 6.3 because that was what was on the proof mark but I stand corrected as it being a 6.5. I am hopeing I can get 2200 fps or better out of the 110 and 117 grain bullets . I also trust the modern design of the flex tip Hornady bullets will perform well on whitetail. I have used them on several species of large and medium size game in a .270 , 8x58R and a 6.5x57 and have been amazed at the wound damage. They open up faster than conventional bonded bullets yet still have plenty of penetration. Hopefully I can report on how this cartridge / bullet does on a nice whitetail this fall.
Thanks Axel for the info on the maker and cartridge.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I don't believe everything in COTW either, as I have said before. I just didn't have any experience with 6.5x48R. With the ballistics you listed, I think I would rather have one than a 6.5x58R. At least then I could use 30-30 cases.

Leatherman,
According to the ballistics Axel shows above, I would expect you could get over 2200 fps, maybe 2300, with the 100 gr Flextip bullet. I don't know about those big Pa. Whitetails, but that load would kill a small Alabama one "Grave Yard Dead". I would like to try the 165 gr. 32 Win. Special Flextip in my 8x57R/360, I have heard so many good things about them.
Mike

[Tom H.]

Leatherman, I loaded for a 6.5x52 that gave mediocre accuracy until I put the classic 117gr 25-35 bullet in it and the groups went below and inch at 100yds. Seeing that it originally fired a heavier bullet, I would think that it had a twist similar to the 25-35 which was a 1/9. Good luck.

Tom

[mike ford]

Tom H. has a good general point, but the critical factor is not the bullet's weight, rather it is the length ( weight affects length, however). I haven't measured them but the 100 gr Flextip might even be longer than the 117gr RN. Of course the .257" Flextip was developed for the 25-35 Win.( 6.5x52R) and has shown good results in it, but each rifle is a law unto itself.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Im on it. I checked the rate of twist and I got 1 in 12" which is slower than the normal 25/35 of 1 in 9" . Which tells me it should prefer the lighter or shorter bullets as I have been told in the past. I will have the two bullets tomorrow and will compare the lengths. Im sure I wont any problem getting this gun shooting good hunting accuracy for the woods of PA. I will test some 127 grain bullets too as I prefer heavier bullets for better penetration on larger game if the angle isnt ideal. I always wind up with lots of bullets in each caliber in my inventory.

[Diz]

My QL program lists the 6.5x48R at a Pmax of 2000 bar (MAP). It also calls for a 264 diameter bullet. I ran a couple of trials with a 127 grain RWS 264 bullet and could not find anything that approached the factory velocity without excess pressure. N-140, 3031, 4064, 4895 among others.

Leatherman, do you have a powder you want to try?

Thanks Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
What if you tried 2300 at for the pressure limit? Axel listed a tested 96 grain bullet load at that pressure( I don't know if at and bar are the same). The action will certainly easily take more than that, but it may have "hound's tooth" firing pin on the hammer, which may limit it some, but even that would be much more than 2000 bar. Whoever wrote the program made a mistake on the bullet dia., maybe the pressure also, if they thought it was a blackpowder cartridge.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

I adjusted the bullet diameter to .257" and tried the Hornady 110 & 117 grain bullets with Viht N-140 so there is some basis for comparison. The 110 grain bullet over 23 grains powder showed 2270 bar (39,917 psi) and 2250 fps. The same load under the 117 grain bullet was 2450 bar (35,530 psi) and 2234 fps. This one is a little hot even for the extra pressure leeway. I dropped one grain and it went down to 2130 bar (31470 psi) and 2144 fps. If the bullet diameter is a mistake it would be the first one I have seen in at least a hundred trials and the Pmax pressure would also be a first. Not to say that it isn't right but maybe Axel can clarify things.

Changing the bullet diameter from .264 to .257 changes the expansion ratio by quite a bit and this jumps the pressure up even further. Remember that this is all calculated data and not proven, so take it with a large grain of salt.

Thanks, Diz

[Diz]

On another note, the cartridge is not listed as black powder in the program only as obsolete. Thanks, Diz