1888 Commission Rifle - Looking for advice

[benlamb1]

Hi folks,

I have what I believe is a Haenel Model 1900 in 8x57I. It's a gorgeous little carbine that has a few issues which I'm slowly resolving. Chief among them are a double set trigger that doesn't want to work properly when a cartridge is loaded, but works fine without one in the chamber. The set trigger works, but the front trigger doesn't release when set, and just stays a 2-stage. Not a terrible thing, as it still has a decent trigger pull as a single stage, but still - I'd like to fix it. I've tried adjusting the set screw as recommended by Mr. Ford here, but it doesn't really seem to do much. I'm hoping to address this without going to my gunsmith so I look to the collective wisdom of this group.

Secondly, I'm having a devil of a time find a load that's regulated to the sights. I've changed out the front sight a couple of times in order to attempt this, but my handloads still fail to produce a group of any discernible accuracy and they continue to shoot well low of the sight. My loads are hovering around 2200 - 2300 fps with the 200 grain Woodleighs. I understand it was proofed with the old M88 Patrone cartridge which was 227 grains at 2100 fps or so. Should I reduce the load to mimic that velocity or should I change out the rear sight to an adjustable one? I want to use this for hunting as it would be perfect for chasing elk & deer in timber here in Montana. I also worry about expansion of the Woodleigh at this velocity outside of 50-100 yards as the company recommends 2700 - 200 fps for reliable expansion. I feel comfortable with 2300 fps as the ballistics have it retaining velocity to around 150-200 yards which would be about the limit of my shooting ability with the original rear express sight anyway. The .318 bullet fits in a fired cartridge, but a .321 does not.

Third, while a while off, I'm still considering getting claw mounts fitted for the bases and topping the rifle either with a vintage Gerard scope, or a Leupold VX3i 1.5x5. The rifle is still packet fed, so the claw mounts seem to be the best option in order to retain zero while removing the scope to feed the rifle. I did notice that there were some modifications available for the magazine to make it feed like any other bolt w/ the W spring, but I'd hate to change much on this rifle since it seems to be a fairly rare variant. NECG is rightfully proud of their work, and they seem like the only place to get this work done correctly in the states. Are there other scope mounting options I should consider before committing the rifle to this process?

Lastly, in the result that I can't find an accurate load or one that fits my needs I'm considering rechambering the rifle to 8x60. There is a bit of freebore in front of the chamber that looks like it came from corrosive ammo/use and adding a few millimeters of case capacity may erase that issue. Obviously this would impact value and collect-ability, but it would make this a useful gun in the field, and the 8x60 is a pretty unique and fun cartridge. I've seen some 88's chambered in 35 whelen and other higher pressure cartridges and my understanding is that these rifles were still proofed around 75K PSI, is that correct? I'd hate to cause any failure of the rifle due to pressure, but in the event that the bore isn't healthy, I'm looking for ways to increase the lifespan of this wonderful little carbine.


Some photos:

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[benlamb1]

A few more photos:

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With a few others this past weekend at the range:

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[sharps4590]

That is a lovely rifle but, I'm a bona fide sucker for stutzen stocks, side panels and butter knife bolt handles. Thank you for the pictures!!!

I'm going to have to pass on the mechanics of your DST's other than I think all the adjusting screw between the triggers does is change the amount of sear engagement of the triggers.

Getting an older rifle to shoot to the original sights can certainly be a challenge. From what you described I think you have the right idea, slow it down a little and, I believe I'd try a heavier bullet. Both should allow for more barrel time of the bullet and hopefully raise POI. Unless you're looking for the higher velocity for a flatter trajectory I wouldn't be afraid of 1600 to 1800 fps with a 220 gr., .318 bullet for deer sized game. I understand the difficulty of finding jacketed, .318 bullets of a suitable weight. Hawk Bullets offers .318, 220 gr. bullets with a .030 jacket annealed dead soft which I think is about 25 BHN. Some like them, others not so much because they're annealed dead soft and can copper streak some bores. I've never had a problem with them. They should expand nicely at lower velocities. Here's the link, just scroll down to .318 bullets or hit the menu and choose.

http://hawkbullets.com/bullet-selection.html#/

All I've used for over 20 years is cast bullets and I can either order a mold the correct size or size down bullets from one of my existing molds. I've never lost a head of game using cast and they're a heck of a lot cheaper. You certainly don't need Woodleigh's to kill a deer, hog or black bear.

Purely my opinion but I wouldn't consider re-chambering the rifle. You should be able to get the 8 X 57 to shoot to the sights....if you fiddle with the loads enough. If the bore is nice I'd definitely consider a cast, gas checked bullet of 220-230 grs. somewhere between 1800 and 2000 fps, whichever would shoot to the sights.

All the above is one curmudgeonly old man thinking out loud and based on his experience. If there's anything in those thoughts you might find useful, good. If not....toss it in the circular file.

BTW, nice collection!!!! What's the double?

[mike ford]

benlamb1,
Your rifle is not a Model 1900, rather it is a Model 1888. It is nevertheless a fine rifle to have, and you shouldn't be disappointed in it. As I have stated before, most double set triggers that don't work ( in USA at least) are misadjusted, but not all of them. Your statement that it functions as a 2-stage trigger, when loaded, tells me it is not "setting", for some reason. It could be wear in the trigger's sear and/or sear notch, hundred year old "gunk" in the notch, or a little spring that holds the front trigger up, may be defective. The set triggers( if working) will set and trip, outside the rifle. If you remove the trigger guard/ mag. assy. and observe the operation of the set triggers. You might be able to see what the problem is. If you have to remove much metal cleaning up the sear/notch, they should be re-hardened with "Kasenit" or modern substitute. You can change the rear sight to a similar adjustable one, fitting it to the original dovetail, and preserve the original one, together with the original front sight. This wouldn't harm the value of the rifle. With this, you can adjust the point of impact, but group size is a different story. The full length stock is held to the barrel by two keys and "Loop" type front sling attachment; any one or combination of which could be the cause of the problem. When the barrel heats up during firing a "string", it lengthens and may affect the bedding. You can check this by shooting a group, a different day for each shot, or at the very least let it come completely to ambient temperature, before firing the next shot. If you don't get a satisfactory group, then, look to the barrel/ammo for the problem. If the group is satisfactory, take the rifle apart and see if you can see evidence of bedding problems.
Regarding scope mounts, claw mounts are pretty expensive, but NECG does a fine job. On the other hand, Ernst Apel Wuerzburg (EAW) makes (or at least did) a system to convert old claw mount bases to swing mounts, while not permanently modifying the rifle. This should be a little cheaper, but maybe more importantly, you have more flexibility in selecting a scope. I believe NECG carries EAW parts, but ERA may have such a system now. You still have to take care to mount the scope high enough to avoid having to modify the bolt handle.
With regard to the idea of rechambering the rifle, I highly recommend against it. The 8x60 is a fine cartridge, but the 8x57I also is. Rechambering won't necessarily improve the groups any way. You might benefit by trying the new 165 gr .321" Flextip bullets. From your info, above, you would only need to size them .003" and a Lee sizing die should handle this much for a "cup and core" bullet ( not solid copper or partition) with no problems. This assumes you install an adjustable sight or scope.
Finally, I know many will disagree, group size from a rifle like this is not too important in my opinion, as long as the first shot from a cold barrel hits where you want it to. If the deer dies from the first shot, great, but if not, you won't get a second or it will be running. What a real rifleman considers a poor group will still fit well inside the "kill area". Also, I'm not sure if converting the rifle to not require "enblock" clips, couldn't be undone. If it were mine, I would be perfectly happy to hunt with it as a single shot ( when hunting with a Mauser, I only load one in the magazine anyway).
Mike

Vic,
Looks like we were writing at the same time.
Mike

[benlamb1]

Thanks, gentlemen!

I have no disappointment at all with this rifle. It's a lovely gun and handles incredibly well, hence the fretting over getting it to shoot well.

I'll keep tinkering with loads and will order some of the 220 grain bullets from Hawk. The 200's are pretty, but also pretty expensive. I've been able to get accurate loads out of my drilling using them, and within the 2300 fps velocity that matches the S&B factory ammo that I have.

This little carbine is proving to be a much more challenging endeavor than that one was unfortunately. I was able to put two bullets on target at the range using the 12 inch gong and that was it. I'm not looking for minute of angle, but certainly minute of deer would be nice. If I can get a group at about 2-3 inches, then I'll be happy. Right now it's a pattern of about 8-12 inches at 100 yards. I totally agree on the first shot being the most important. I hunt quite a bit with a Ruger #1 in 9.3x74R and have not felt the need for more than one in the tube. I would only consider rechambering after exhausting all other options, or if the bore was worse than I think it is. I have a barreled action from a K. Kale Turk that would make a fun project to work up an 8x60 anyway. So much appreciation for talking me out of that bad idea!

The set triggers are a mystery. I did work the adjustment screw both ways, and it did improve the front trigger from not tripping the sear at all when loaded to firing corectly once, then no more. So a spring or gunk may well be the culprit. I'll disassemble and try scrubbing well and see if that helps. I did have the smith check it out, and he gave it a clean bill of health a few years ago, but a weak spring and not having a case or cartridge chambered to test it out would possibly yield incorrect results.

The double is a Mortimer 450 3 1/4 BPE from around 1880 or possibly a little before. I've been able to harvest a couple of whitetail does with it using the 350 grain Hornady round nose and 120 grains of fffg swiss. It can smack the 8" gong at 100 yards all day, but it's a little heavy to carry in the woods. The Shiloh is a 40-70 Shiloh Straight w/ the reproduction Wlm Malcom fixed 6 power scope. Super fun, but also super fussy on cartridge length. The Ruger was my first rifle from my father (the Haenel, Mortimer & Shiloh were all dad's as well) that I had rebarrelled into a 7mm Mauser Ackley Improved last year. It's fun and pretty accurate. I didn't harvest an antelope last year, but hope to draw in MT this year, where it will be the primary rifle.

Thanks for the very helpful suggestions. I'll keep tinkering & upating!

[mike ford]

benlamb1,
Maybe I'm still a little confused about what is happening with the triggers. In the first post, you mentioned that the trigger worked as a two stage trigger when you set it, then in the second posting, you mentioned that it worked once. When the trigger worked as a 2 stage trigger, did you first hear a "click" or not ? If you did hear a " click", then the set triggers worked after all, they didn't trip the sear in the rifle itself. If there was no "click", then the trigger didn't "set", which is how I understood it. The way double set triggers work is the rear trigger is powered by a pretty powerful spring, and when you pull it, it loads the spring, and is held under tension by engaging with the front trigger. The spring I mentioned in my posting is not the spring that powers the set trigger, rather it is a less powerful one that allows the two triggers to engage( in a sear arrangement). When set and the front trigger is tripped, it releases the rear trigger, which flies upward and strikes the "kick off" which is attached to the rifle's sear and projects under it. When it strikes the "kick off" it causes the rifle's sear to disengage. The sear spring in a rifle with a single trigger is too powerful to allow the set trigger to disengage the sear, and had to be either replaced or shortened when the double set triggers were installed. That is a long explanation to make this point. Whether the rifle is loaded or not shouldn't make any difference, it's whether its cocked or not( unless the headspace is so short that the cartridge puts additional backward force on the rifles sear). When you remove the triggerguard assy. and check it, verify that the set trigger engages and releases, or readjust/ repair it to do so. Then, with the rifle reassembled and cocked, with the safety off, set the trigger, trip it, and see if the striker falls. If it does, try again, but with a case that is sized the same as your handloads, if the striker falls, try it again with a loaded round. You might also remove the rifle's sear and clean it, including the spring and the spring's recess, first.
Let us know how it works out. If my memory is correct, Sharps4590 worked out a grouping problem similar to yours with his Manlicher Schoenauer. You can "count on" his experiences to be helpful.
Mike

[benlamb1]

More than likely, the confusion comes from my lack of correct terminology or inaccurate explanation.

The set trigger works when there is nothing in the chamber. The rear trigger sets the front perfectly, and the front releases the firing pin with very little pressure - just as it should.

When you put a spent cartridge or a fresh one in the chamber and close the bolt, the rear trigger still sets, but when you pull the front trigger, it only clicks without firing. You then have to use the front trigger as a two-stage trigger, rather than a set one. It only does that when there is a round in the chamber.

When I shot it Sunday, the set trigger functioned correctly once, then reverted back to the above description.

[sharps4590]

For whatever reason I never gave thought to the two barrel keys and sling stirrup and I apologize for the oversight. I agree with Mike and I think I would check them first. I have a 1903 M/S that wouldn't group to my satisfaction. Finally found that the sling stirrup barrel lug was rubbing on both the bottom and rear of its mortise in the stock. I carefully relieved those two places and the rifle tightened up nicely. Mine wasn't shooting low however, just wouldn't group. If you find and correct any stock interference and the rifle groups well but still shoots low I'd consider the load.

I have a Reilly double in 500 BPE quite similar to yours and from the same era. The British gun trade at that time was as confusing as the German gun trade and I'm not certain who really made my Reilly. It's definite Reilly didn't.

40-70 SS!!! Ha!! I have a Shiloh #1 Sporter in 40-70 SS and it's one of the 3 most accurate rifles I've ever owned. Mine is outfitted with MVA tang and windage adjustable, spirit level front sight with interchangeable apertures. I have held MOA out to 600 yards with mine set up the way it is, shooting BP and cast bullets. I've had mine for....over 20 years and so far it's not been fussy....hope it stays that way!!!!

[mike ford]

benlamb1,
I have rethought the idea in the parenthetical remark above, about headspace. This couldn't increase the pressure on the rifle's sear, so the remark should be disregarded. At least, now we know there is no need to do any thing with the adjustment screw or trigger's sear and notch. What we need to do is increase the force applied to the "kick off", and/or decrease the resistance ( in the sear assy. and bolt) to release the striker. I am perplexed by the firing pin/striker releasing on an empty chamber, but not if a case or cartridge is chambered. The only difference I can see between these two conditions seems to be that a case head in the bolt face, would center the bolt and hold it there. I suppose a bolt, not centered, could have a few "thousandths" less engagement with the sear, than if it were centered. I'm guessing you have already cleaned the set triggers and sear assy.. If so, did you notice any kind of spacer under the mainspring that powers the rear trigger ( I have seen metal and leather spacers)? Such spacers decrease the power of the spring. If there is one, remove it, and try again with a case chambered. If it doesn't work, we will have to look to the sear. I hesitate to make changes to parts that were adjusted to function by people clearly more skilled than I, a hundred years ago, but we can't know if anyone else has done so. You should first clean the sear assy.( detail strip it), polish all bearing and camming surfaces, insuring there are no rough surfaces or burrs and lube them. When you reassemble the rifle, first try it without using the set triggers. Pull the front trigger very slowly and closely watch the striker, to see if it moves slightly backward before moving forward. Do this a few times to be sure the sear doesn't have to cam the sear rearward. While doing this, closely observe whether there is a 2-stage operation or excessive sear engagement, or a combination of both. If all this seems OK , we will have to think about re-tempering the mainspring in the triggers, shortening the spring in the sear assy., adjusting sear engagement, or modifying the "kick off" to make it closer to the rear trigger. Of all these, the easiest to try first is the spring in the sear assy., I suggest finding a similar spring and work with it, preserving the original. Let us know how this works out.
Mike

[benlamb1]

Very helpful, Mr. Ford. I've not had time to detail strip the rifle or the bolt yet, and will likely do that Thursday or Friday evening, work depending. Lots of information and it is greatly appreciated! I'm a little nervous taking a file or stone to the internals, but I'll scale back my coffee intake to ensure a steady hand. If it gets to be more than I think I can handle, I'll take it back to the smith and use your well thought out response as a guiding light.

Sharps - I have a Rodda 577/500 No. 2 as well with the Calcutta address. Just the ticket for shooting Tigers off the backs of Elephants while visiting the Maharajah. She's going out in the field this year for sure for elk in the Upper Blackfoot, where there is no shortage of toothy critters to compete with:

Rodda.jpg

[sharps4590]

Sooo...you an' Corbett competing for tiger killin' king?..... That has to be a fun rifle and cartridge to play with.

I wouldn't be surprised if W & C Scott, or one iteration of that company or another, made your Rodda and my Reilly. I'm not that familiar with Mortimer, whether they bought some from the trade or made everything in house. I am familiar with Mortimer's fine reputation.

[benlamb1]

I'd be happy to plug a cow elk with it. Or anything, really! 130 grains of ffg with a 365 grain cast bullet at 1650 fps is a lot of fun, and it's accurate enough out to 150 yards.

[Diz]

benlamb1, I might be inclined to put a dial indicator on the bolt near the area of the sear engagement and check it with and without a cartridge in the chamber to see if there is any movement and in what direction. It may be that the bolt is being centered better or perhaps moving downward and putting additional pressure on the sear system. Hard to say without having it in-hand. It just sounds to me like it it something other than the set trigger that is affecting how it operates. Does the bolt close hard or normal? That might be a clue as well. Nice rifle by the way.

I have a Cody Ballard in 40-70 that shoots far better than I can see and a double 450-400 NE that is a great shooter.

Thanks, Diz

[benlamb1]

Diz,

Thanks for the reply. The bolt closes normally with fired cases and loaded rounds. I'll measure the movement on the bolt tomorrow. We're supposed to have a rainy day, which will give me time to get in the basement and do some fiddling with the rifle (as well as do some reloading).

The Cody Ballards are lovely guns. I've got a Schuetzen in 32-40 that is drop-dead gorgeous. Haven't shot it much, so I can't speak to it's accuracy.

[benlamb1]

Well we're getting a little closer to solving the puzzle. Shot the Haenel again tonight and while the triggers remain a bit of a mystery, I did realize that she's pretty well on at 50 yards with the front leaf. The low one is the first shot. Second & third are in the red, and the fourth is high. So I think I'm going to slow it down a little bit and see what I get.

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