Need some help identifying a drilling

[Deputy Dog]

I'm new to the forum & to German guns. I'm hoping all of your experience can help me identify an old drilling. Here's the story... my father in law is wanting to sell an old drilling that his father brought back from World War 2. He needs the money & we'd like to make him a fair offer so it stays in the family.

The gun is a double 16 gauge over 8x57mm. It has some engraving and scrollwork, but not very ornate. Overall length is 42.75" and the barrels are 25.875 from muzzle to breech. It has marks from the Kaba proof house (I think) & is dated 8/28. There are matching serial numbers of 12859 on the barrels, the waterline, and the fore end. The shotgun barrels are Rochling-Elektro and the rifle barrel is Krupp-Lauff. A local gun shop that specializes in older guns told me its in 65% condition.

The right shotgun barrel is marked "F.J. Walther" and the left says "Bad-Durkheim." These marks are on the tops of the barrels about 2" forward of the breech. The breech face of the receiver is marked with an anchor which has an H on one side and a K on the other.

Any information anyone could provide about the gun's history or value would be extremely helpful. I can post pictures if they would help.

Thanks!
-Adam

[Axel E]

Ferdinand Johann Walther, Römerstr. 18, Bad Dürkheim, merely retailed your Drilling. The anchor + HK trademark you describe is Heinrich Krieghoff, Suhl. Heinrich K. founded his own company in 1916. In the early 1920s he bought the factory of V.C.Schilling. In 1926 he also acquired his father's older company, Sempert & Krieghoff. So Krieghoff is the real maker. Some photos would certainly help to identify the model!
What do you think is a "Kaba" proofmark? "Kaba" is not a proofhouse, but was the trademark of the dealer and wholesaler Carl Bauer & Co., Berlin, Suhl, Breslau and Königsberg.

[Deputy Dog]

First, thank you for responding! The gun has "Kaba, Suhl" engraved in script near the breech end of both shotgun barrels. I was told, maybe incorrectly, by someone else that Kaba was Karl Bauer & Company & was a proof-house in Suhl. I don't seem to be able to upload photos but can email them if you give me an email address.

Thank you for your help so far.

-Adam

[Axel E]

As I wrote, "Kaba" = Carl or Karl (C and K were interchangeable then in German) Bauer was a wholesaler with outlets in Berlin, Suhl and so on. The German proofhouses in Suhl and Zella-Mehlis were/are government institutions. Each and every gun, mass produced, custom made or imported, has to pass proof before it is released to the public. This is to assure it is safe when used whith the intended ammunition. The proofmarks are the crowned letters B,U,S,G,W,E.
PM sent.
Axel

[mike ford]

Deputy Dog,
Good photos would be most helpful, maybe Raimey or Axel can help,I can't. Your drilling is in all likelyhood "short chambered" for 2 1/2- 2 9/16" 16ga shells,since 65mm was the standard length. Such shells are avaliable. The 8x57 is likely to be 8x57IR, but could be 8x57R/360. Either one would be marked 7.7/7.8 over 57. Usually, a chamber cast would be required to determine the chambering, but the difference between these two can be determined pretty easily. The 8x57IR head size is close to 30-06/270,etc., but the 8x57R/360 head size is close to 30-30. If you turn an 06 or similar cartridge around and it will just enter the chamber, then it is the IR(in English this will be JR); if not then it is /360. 8X57IR ammo is pretty avaliable, but the 8x57R/360 must be custom( or self) loaded.
Axel,
Good info as usual. Was the Blattzeit good this year?
Mike

[Deputy Dog]

Axel, your explanation of Kaba makes much better sense than what I was previously told. If I understand you correctly, my gun was made by Heinrich Krieghoff, wholesaled by Kaba, & retailed by F.J. Walther. Was it normal for the wholesaler and the retailer to both put thier names on it? A local "expert" described this as a Guild Gun. Do you think this is an accurate description?

Mike, you are correct about the shotgun chambers. They measure at 16ga x 2 9/16. I haven't had the rifle chamber checked, but you have piqued my curiosity. Also, what do R, IR, & JR stand for?

Thanks again.
-Adam

[mike ford]

Deputy Dog,
"R" means Rimmed.
"IR&JR" mean Infantry Rimmed. The 8x57 rimless cartridge was adopted for the 1888 Commission Rifle as the 8x57 infantry(8x57I), a rim was added shortly after this to adapt it to breakopen guns like your drilling. This cartridge was the 8x57 Infantry Rimmed (8x57IR). In old German, the "upper case" I looks like a J,so Americans usually read it as "J". The 8x57R/360 is the old English 360 2 1/4"( 9.3x57R)Flanged, necked down to 8mm. Note that both 8x57IR and 8x57R/360 take .318" dia.bullets,whereas the current standard dia. is .323" but .318" bullets are avaliable.BTW, the "8mm" is nominal, conversion of the above diameters won't come out to 8mm, so don't let it bother you.
Mike

[ellenbr]

As usual Axel is 110% correct and Ford is spot on. There is not a demon named a Guild Gun, Austrian or German, just sporting weapons made for the trade. For the lack of ability to define the maker, Americans developed the moniker "Guild Gun" to define the source. The firearms merchant or Wäffenhandler sourced the sporting weapon but didn't want anyone to know that he had not manufactured it. So the talented pool of craftsmen in Suhl & Zella-Mehlis were sourced. I'm sure many times the firearms merchant asked for the compensation/liability marks to be a minimum or to be hidden. Email the image to me & I'll post them for you.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Adam, your photos were much to large, 4-6mb each, for posting. I had to crop them to the essentials. The breech-face shows the Krieghoff trademark. It is in an usual place where such marks on guns made "for the trade". Many "name" makers made such guns, unmarked on the outside, for other dealers. But in the 1920s Krieghoff was not yet the "name" maker they were in the 1930s. Heinrich Krieghoff had founded his own business in 1916 as a machine shop and parts maker to the guntrade. He did not make complete sporting guns, but from 1926 on he also owned the Sempert & Krieghoff company of his father, Ludwig Krieghoff. He kept his two companies somewhat separate until 1945, "S & K" remaining the sporting gun maker, while his original company catered to machining and, from the 1930s, to military arms like the Krieghoff Lugers, the FG42 and other airforce armament. So the chances are good that your drilling conforms to one of the models and grades shown in the 1920s Sempert & Krieghoff catalog offered by the GGCA bookstore on this site.



The drilling was then engraved with the "Kaba" trademark of the wholesaler and last rather crudely stamped by the final retailer.



According to the proofmarks the drilling was indeed proofed by the Suhl government proofhouse in August 1928. The bore (not groove!) diameter of the barrel is given as 7.8mm, so it may have been as large as 7.89mm. Why do I think about this issue? The bullet weight of the service load is given as 10 gramm = 154gr, rather unusual for a 1920s drilling! There was no 10g load for the 8x57R360. Instead, 10g was the bullet weight of the WW1 8x57IS load. Until 1940 there was no clear differentiating between the I and S calibers, see the thread "8x57R and 8x57JRS question" on this forum. In the 1930s both RWS and DWM ammunition catalogs the 10g loads invariably feature the highest pressure of all 8x57I/R/S factory loads, so IMHO your rifle barel was indeed proofed to take the 8x57IRS load. So, if a .323" bullet slps freely into an unsized case fired from your chamber, you may use modern 8x57IRS ammo, which is much more available than 8x57IR; .318" bullet.

[Axel E]

Mike, the Blattzeit is still going on here for a week or two. We have a rather cold and rainy summer here, more like an early autumn. Got a yearlig doe, two yearling and two older bucks up until now this year.
Just to clear up some confusion about 8x57cartridge names: Why has the rimmed version of the 8x57 Mauser case invariably added the "I" to the designation? The 1934 DWM handbook also lists a 8x57R without any letters or numbers added. This was DWM case number 366B, the 8x57 with the Mauser A base and rim. DWM then listed the same loads for all three, the 8x57I, 8x57IR and 8x57R.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Do I understand you to mean the 8x57R is the one with the Mauser A base ? Have you ever seen a rifle with this chambering(rim recess)? Have you seen ammo for it? The 1940 "Shooters Bible" showed a listing for DWM ammo with this rim. I've never seen ammo, but have some 7x57R with this rim in my "accumulation". I have only seen early rifles with the caliber marked by DWM case number. Because of this, it wouldn't surprise me to find out some of the ones being called 8x57IR actually have the Mauser A base rim recess. Other people beside DWM loaded Ammo and they didn't necessarily use the DWM numbers.
In Lower Frankonia, the Blattzeit also usually extended into August by a week or so. This makes me homesick.I also miss Jaeger Schnitzel with wild mushrooms during the mushroom season, in the country gasthaus close to Muennerstadt, you couldn't see the meat. Waidmannsheil for the nice "bag", by the way.

[Deputy Dog]

Thank you all for time and information you've given. I can't imagine how long it would have taken me to learn all of this without you. I do have one final question, though. Can anyone give me a possible fair market value on this gun? Like I said in my initial posting, I want to make sure we give a fair price for it. I've heard a lot of numbers from a lot of people locally but you all have proven to be vastly more knowlegable.

Thank you again
-Adam

[mike ford]

Adam,
Sorry, someone else will have to help you with that, I try to avoid giving prices. I usually think they are worth less than other people do. The best way is to check prices from drillings that have recently been actually sold on other web site auctions. Be careful about accepting asking prices on other sites, some drillings stay on these sites for years because they are overpriced.
Sorry,
Mike

[Axel E]

Adam, sorry, I am unable to help with a "fair market value" of the drilling, as our German market, especially when it comes to drillings, is completely different from the American one.

Mike, the "8x57R" moniker meaning the case with the Mauser A base is exactly what I conclude from the ballistic tables of the 1934 DWM handbook "Patrone u. Schuß". In the left column you read , top to bottom, the "new", post-WW1 cartridge designations, 8x57IR, 8x57R and 8x57I, below them the "old", pre-WW1 ones and then the DWM case numbers. Here are these tables with the bewildering choice of loads available then:





Yes, I have seen some rifles chambered for the 8x57R, M88A:
There was a double rifle by Vierordt on G.Kersten's "Drehblockverschluss" patent # 141334 of 1902, a peculiar action with the block dropping down for about ¼" to unlock it from the barrel extensions, then rolling back to expose the chambers. Got no photo of the exact rifle, but here is one of such an action.



Then there was a break-open single shot stalking rifle, signed by Wilhelm Foerster, Berlin. It was in use by an old hunter I met some years ago. Third, there is a Büchsflinte = cape gun in 12 bore / 8x57R, also by Foerster, on a boxlock action, set up for a left-handed shooter, rifle barrel and front trigger left. It was buried in 1945, rusted, resurrected from the grave, scrubbed and restocked. On this gun the rifle chamber was then altered to use the common IR(S) case by soldering a steel ring into the rim recess. It was given by my grandfather to a relative in the early 1950s. My uncle, a retired forester, in turn a few years ago gave it to my son who shoots from his left shoulder.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks for the info, it is all interesting. Do you know if the M88A case has the same datum line for headspacing as the common IR(S) case? If so, it should headspace on the shoulder rather than the rim. This is why I wondered if there are "A" base 8X57R rifles hiding here in the US as 8X57JR(S), or maybe Germany too. If so, it may not make much difference( I adjust my dies to headspace every thing I load-except straight cases-on the shoulder anyway). Go back to my article on loading 11mm cartridges. The method I used to convert 45-70/90 cases to "A" base, should work with the M88A also, with the correct size button die and punch. May have to neck the case up to 9mm to have a large enough punch that it won't bend- maybe not.
Your son is lucky to have such a generous great uncle.
Mike