Need help with feeding in M88 sporter 8x56 mannlicher

[Tom H.]

Greetings.

I have recently become the latest keeper of a high condition 88 sporter barreled and stocked by Burgsmuller in 8x56 Mannlicher. After reading earlier posts here, I ground down a shellholder by .025 and sized with 8x57 dies until the cases headspaced properly and trimmed. Looking forward to getting it shooting.
The problem is that the clip that I am using doesn't engage the latch in the guard.
It could simply be that those clips are old and this one may be out of spec. I disassembled the rifle and the bedding appears correct and the fit is nearly factory new (the gun is matching). The only thing that I noticed is that a loaded clip works properly when the guard is off of the rifle but not when the guard is installed in the stock.
I don't want to start adjusting things (metal, wood) unless I have to.

Help. Please.

Thanks.

Tom

[mike ford]

Tom,
Are you sure the rifle is actually 8x56 MS ? It would more than likely be 8x57I instead, but Burgsmuller was a good size dealer and it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they could have had some M88s made in 8x56MS for sale in Austria. It would be helpful if you posted photos of the rifle, including the top and bottom of the action as well as proof marks. Some WW1 M88s were converted to use 8x57IS ammo in the "stripper" clips rather than the original "enbloc" clips. It wouldn't be too unbelievable for Burgsmuller to have sporting M88s converted to use stripper clips, or no clips, if chambered for 8x56MS, which wouldn't normally be available in M88 clips. Others on this site are much more knowledgeable than I about Mannlicher( M88 based) rifles. The photos I mentioned would help them evaluate your rifle.
Mike

[Tom H.]

20180507_204745.jpg

20180507_204651.jpg

There is an "s" stamp just in front of the receiver. If any of the other numbers are unclear, I can translate.

20180507_204718.jpg

Tom

[Axel E]

I agree with Mike: It's very unlikely that your Burgsmueller M88 sporter is in 8x56 M-S. The 8x56 M-S cartridge came in 1908 only when the M88 action was already outmoded. The 1910 Burgsmueller catalog still offered a M88 sporter justlike your's at Mark 84 = $ 21.-, but in 8x57I only. It may be even dangerous to shoot 8x56 M-S cartridges in an 8x57 I rifle, even if it fits into the chamber. The 8x57I uses .318" bullets, while the 8x56 M-S uses .324 - .325" bullets.
As I understand, your problem comes from the magazine follower not going down deep enough when assembled to the stock. So the problem may originate with wood shrinkage or just plain gunk. Disassemble the magazine and depress the follower to the bottom. The follower spring guide rod comes out of the front end of the magazine box, just above the follower hinge. There must be a hole or recess in the stock wood to accept this rod when the follower is fully down. If this recess is too small or filled with gunk, the follower cannot be depressed far enough for the clip latch to engage.

[Tom H.]

Thank you both for the replies.
I did a quick slug of the bore and it looks like .318.
What is the stamp on the barrel refer to ( the S inside the hexagon) just in front of the witness mark on the barrel? I have to make a chamber cast to see if it is an "S" chamber.
My leaning towards the 8ms is that I had to grind .025 from the shellholder to get 8x57 to fit.

What cartridge could it be?

The gun is very clean inside and everything seems to be working properly. A loaded clip slides into the magazine easily, but the tab on the back of the clip doesn't engage the latch.
I may just have to fit the latch.
Let me know if I should post more pix.

Thanks

Tom

[Axel E]

That S in hexagon is the mark of the Schilling forge, Suhl, who supplied most of the Suhl guntrade barrelmakers with forgings. It is not related to a "S" barrel or chambering.
Civilian cartridge and chamber dimensions were "normalised" in 1909 only. Before every gunmaker and ammo factory had their own dimensions. chambers were often adapted to one ammo brand only. Additionally, post-WW1 8x57 dimensions were slightly altered again. And the German gunmakers resharpened their valuable chamber reamers several times, as long as a cartridge of their preferred brand would chamber. So it appears you are struck with a sub-minimum 8x57Ichamber by today's American standards. It's not the first time I had to grind a bit off the bottom of RCBS dies to resize cases enough to fit pre-WW1 German chambers.
I still believe your problem is with the inletting. in the front end of the M88 magazine is the spring loaded plunger that raises the follower. With the follower up, it is about flush with the bottom metal:

With a full clip latched inside the magazine, the follower full down, this plug protudes about .320" from the bottom metal:

If this plug can not protude as far, the follower can not go down full and the latch can not engage the clip. There is a corresponding hole in the wood to provide the needed clearance for the protuding plunger:

If this hole is not deep enough, maybe from the start or by 110 years of wood drying and shrinking, or too narrow, the magazine follower can not be depressed completely and the latch can not engage the clip. So check this hole first, drilling it a wee bit larger and deeper if necessary.

[mike ford]

Tom,
You asked "what cartridge could it be?", it is almost sure to be 8x57I M88. This was the first of the 8x57 cartridges and used a .318" bullet. You didn't say what ammo you have been using, but it is possible that a larger than .318" bullet is causing the interference( in chambering, not holding the clip). You can smoke the bullet/neck/shoulder area of a cartridge, with a lighter or candle and try to chamber it. Wherever the interference is, the soot will be rubbed off pretty clearly. Also, if you have any fired, un-resized, cases, see if one of the bullets you are using will fit easily into the neck. If you don't have any of the loose bullets, you will have to pull one from a cartridge. It is the base of the bullet you need to see if fits. BTW, you can use the same smoking trick to see if the plunger Axle mentioned is hitting the stock( you could also use lipstick, but your wife might object). If you let us know what you find, we can proceed from there.
Mike

[Tom H.]

Problem solved...maybe.

Thank you for giving me info that I hadn't thought of asking for as it puts other things in perspective.
I decided that messing with the bedding was more perilous than taking some metal off of the tab at the bottom of the latch. Mind you, I understand that the metal was correct in the first place, but messing with the bedding would have played heck with what still amounts to a really great fit.
I took off .020 from the base of the tab which multiplied to an additional .060 engagement at the top of the latch. The latch was softer than I expected and the metal came off easily.
There was no problem with the plunger and the follower seems to be working fine.
The one clip that I have loads easily enough and ejects when the catch release is pressed. Rounds load as well but not as smoothly as I would like. Could be the clip.
Maybe.
Another question. Do all 88s have the two piece receiver? You can see the second witness mark on my top photo.
Thank you again and time for a range run. I do have .318 slugs that I will try first.

Tom

[mike ford]

Tom,
That is not really a 2 piece receiver. The Military M88 used a barrel shroud that screwed onto the receiver. The sporting barrel on your rifle has no need for a shroud, so what you see is a threaded collar that only covers the thread on the outside of the receiver.
Mike

[mike ford]

Tom,
Just as an aside, regarding your decision to take metal off the "tab" instead of adjusting any interference with the stock. An old gunsmith friend that has since passed away told me years ago that metal hardly ever expands with age and any problem with old gun parts is much more likely to be caused by wear somewhere, and told me to be very cautious about filing old gun parts. That said, I'm happy it worked out for you.
Mike

[Tom H.]

Thanks Mike and Axel. I know far more about the 88 than I did before and fortunately the fix appeared to work.
I am sure that this won't be my last posting on this rifle.

Cheers,

Tom