More help please

[The Goose]

So here is another newbie inquiry and thank you for your patience. A few years back I picked up this rifle. A buddy of mine had it in his now defunct gun shop. It sat on the rack for ages. He never even put a price tag on it and there was minimal interest. I looked at it a dozen times and although I liked it, it was not really my interest. One day I was flush and asked him what he would take for it and he said $400 and I said deal. Took it home, admired it and socked it in the safe. Last week I got re-intetested. (because of this forum). I took a chamber cast and slugged the barrel. It is an 8 X 57 with a .318 groove diameter. I believe that makes it a J, is that correct? I took some photos including any markings I could find. What do I have? It is a very well balanced, handy and light rifle. Also I think it is quite beautiful. Bore us good and I will be shooting it. Thank you for any help.

[The Goose]

And a couple more photos

[mike ford]

Goose,
The 172,28 is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter of the barrel, as expressed in gauge measurement. It works out to 7.62mm and is often found on barrels with a .318" groove diameter. You are correct, therefore, that it is chambered for the 8x57 I (M88 cartridge). The 2.67gG.B.P over St.M.G. is the proof load for smokeless proof of rifles ( this was 2.67grams rifle flake powder and a steel jacketed bullet). The crown next to the smaller crown over N is the mark for nitro proof of rifles. This mark, combined with the proof load, was used between 1893 and 1913. This serves to date the rifle. Since it is built on an M98 action, this moves the date to between 1898 and 1913. Many rifles like this were made from wartime surplus actions, but since they were not generally available until around 1919( and later), yours may be a commercial Mauser action. Commonly( but not always) rifles built on commercial actions would have two numbers, one would be the Mauser number and the other the makers number. Since you have only shown one number, it may have been built on a commercial action or on a "found" military action. It would be helpful if you check the back of the magazine box for a number and see if the double set triggers are set individually in the trigger guard on in a separate "unit", set into the trigger guard as a unit. If the number can be confirmed as a Mauser number, we can date the action closer than the 15 year spread. The letters behind the recoil lug are marks of people performing different operations in the manufacture of the action. There is no way now to identify who these workers were. The matting on top of the receiver ring is to cover up a military crest or the Mauser Oberndorff address( and maybe date). See if you can find other markings anywhere, check in the barrel channel and under the butt plate. For a couple reasons my "gut" feeling is it is a military action. The bolt handle has a military look and it would be unusual to hide a Mauser address on the receiver ring( it would be an enhancement).
Mike

[The Goose]

Great info. Thank you so much. I will look further.

[sharps4590]

I can't add a thing to what Mike said...other than I am a dead sucker for rifles of that period. Nice find and a pretty darn good price.

I admit to being highly prejudiced in favor of cast bullets. With the .318 groove diameter that lovely rifle is a perfect candidate for a cast bullet load.

[The Goose]

I admit to being highly prejudiced in favor of cast bullets. With the .318 groove diameter that lovely rifle is a perfect candidate for a cast bullet load.

I agree and that is the plan. What size bullet would you use? I have .319 and .321 sizing dies. I have a 170 gr gas checked bullet that I cast for a .32 Remington. Figure it might work.

[mike ford]

The 170gc bullet at .319" will work, and the .321 will likely work( if it will fit unsized neck of fired case-no problem).
Mike

[sharps4590]

What Mike said. I size mine to .321 because I already had that die and, as Mike said, it slipped easily into the neck of a fired case. Once that is determined the final decision will obviously be based on which shoots best.

Your 170 gr. bullet should work fine. I shoot an Accurate 33-205T bullet in mine and it does cast at that weight from my alloy. I do so mostly because I like a heavier bullet. I can't imagine either could be wrong.

Your rifle and my Sauer & Sohn in 9 X 57 bear a striking resemblance to each other....imagine that.

[Axel E]

Note the letter A under the receiver is of different shape than the other, meaningless letters. Apparently the stamp used was less worn than the other letters.
Until recently I thought M98 actions were available from the Mauser factory only before WW1, as the Mauser patents were still in force. Now I came across an article in the 1909 Waffenschmied about a theft trial at the Erfurt law court, involving about a dozen persons. I learned, there was a grey or even black market for 98 actions too. The Royal Prussian small arms factory in Erfurt then made Gewehr 98 rifles under licence for the German armies exclusively. The military acceptance procedure was very scrutinising in those peacetimes to insure complete interchangabiklity of all parts. Parts that failed these stringent inspections, even for very minor dimensional deviations, were not accepted. At the Erfurt arsenal such parts were marked with the letter A for Ausschuss = defective product. The accused in those 1909 trial, officials and workers of the arsenal, had intentionally produced such unacceptable parts, stolen them from the junk piles and smuggled them to Suhl and Zella – Mehlis. There outworking gunsmithes completed and hand fitted these parts into usable actions. A middleman then sold these actions at bargain prices to reputable gunmakers, Greifelt, Meffert and Menz among them. The meaning of the many small letters and numbers was even then unknown outside the factory, as the expert witnesses Chr.Funk and P. Mauser admitted. Over the years at least two hundred such actions had found their way into Suhl and Zella – Mehlis made sporting rifles.
So this rifle, a typical pre-WW1 Suhl sporter, was apparently built on one of these "lunchbox" actions from Erfurt arsenal. This should not set you off, as the rifle was duly proofed before 1912 by the Suhl proofhouse, using the "4000 atm special proof powder". It has stood the test of time and is as good as any of the interwar Mausers built on ex-military actions. At least, it is an interesting example of German gunmaking history.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks, that explained my "gut" feeling that it was a military rather than Mauser action.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Acquitted were “Fabriksbesitzer” Meffert and Greifelt and “Werkmeister” Menz and “Büchsenmacher” Bartsch from Suhl. This does of course not mean they did not receive and make use of 98 actions. They may very well have been involved but they were not found guilty.

Found guilty:
“Agent Bader” – two years and six months in “Zuchthaus” plus five years “Ehrverlust”
“Gewehrfabrikant [Theodor] Ehmann” – a jail sentence ("Gefängnis") of one year and three months plus three years “Ehrverlust”
“Kaufmann [Louis] Nax” – a jail sentence of nine months plus three years “Ehrverlust”
“Werkmeister Labonwois” – a jail sentence of nine months plus three years “Ehrverlust”
“Büchsenmacher Fleischhauer” – a six months jail sentence

The “Gewehrdiebstähle” apparently took place sometime in 1907/08. Apparently two other men were involved: a “Depotfeldwebel Friedrich Wilhelm Lüdicke" (uncertain about the umlaut) and a “Depotsergeant Ernst Sackwitz”. They both received “Gefängnisstrafen” (court-martialled) and were also degraded.

Kind regards
Peter

[The Goose]

Thank you. That is some incredible detective work and much appreciated

[Axel E]

älgmule, some translations may be useful:
“Gewehrdiebstähle” = thefts of rifles
“Zuchthaus” = prison with hard labor
"Gefängnis" = common jail
“Ehrverlust” = "loss of honor". After doing their time in prison or jail the persons could not vote, be elected for any office, they could not be jurors, testify or run a business in their own name for 3 or 5 years.
“Fabriksbesitzer” = factory owner
“Gewehrfabrikant" = gunmaker
“Werkmeister” = shop foreman, production manager
“Büchsenmacher" = gunsmith
“Kaufmann" = businessman
“Depotsergeant" and “Depotfeldwebel" = sergeant and master sergeant at Erfurt arsenal, responsible for inspecting and/or registering rifles.

[chapmen]

Edit, found in the 1909 Waffenschmied.