new member needs rifle info

[J.L.]

I'm J.L. Thompson, I was sent here by some people from guns and ammo forums. I bought a rifle that was made by a German maker, Joh Specht from Bautzen in March 1912, it is (from a cast) a 5.6X35 Rmm Vierling cal. I would like to find out as much as possible about this rifle. Below is the discription I gave on G&A forum, I have photos but have had trouble posting them (will try here). Wile doing the ballistics casting I found a photo of a similar rifle in Cartridges of the World 11, page 414 under the vierling discription. Any help would be appreciated.


OK here goes (please keep in mind I can't spell); this is a single shot rifle the lever to open the breech is in the trigger guard. It has a double set trigger fully adjustible W/ thumb set safety on the spine. Octagon barrel with dovetails cut for front and rear sights that have been removed and a Weaver KV scope poorly mounted with Edfield mounts (leather scope covers). under the barrel it's stampped 7.6 mm, 3.12, 550, the craftsman marks appear to be three crowns (circles with a star in the center and a cross on top) one with an F below one with a G and one with a U. the serial # is 18607 below that is a SS and below that is 362. It has a cheek rest on the stock with a trap door cover that holds 4 shells. the recever, trigger guard and trap door are hand engraved right down to the screw heads and the barrel is engraved with what looks like a rope where it meets the recever and the top of the barrel has what I can only discribe as tightly packed wavy lines frount to back side to side of the flat. also the release lever for the hand guard is also engraved even though it's recessed 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. Oh also the stock has a checkered grip. Will this help?
THANKS
J.L.

[ellenbr]

Difficult to tell exactly, but from the verbiage I don't see how you are going from a 7.6mm pre-rifled diameter to 5.6mm unless there is a Crown/R there somewhere. Images would be most beneficial. With the date code it was made in the Zella-Mehlis area.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[J.L.]

Raimey
I am trying to upload photos with no success "YET" if you know any one that is good on these things I will e-mail the photo for them to post.
What we have been going on for the date is the 3.12 stampping. as far as the 7.6mm to the 5.6 that is one of the mysteries of this gun I'm looking for answers to.
Thanks
J.L.
There are pohtos posted on the Guns and Ammo forum,General,rifle info by wingsandstrings. the same I'm trying to post here.

[ellenbr]

Send them to me and I'll post them for you.

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

[J.L.]

Please send your e-mail address to wingsandstrings@aol.com or to my PM.
Thanks
J.L.

[mike ford]

JL,
I don't think your rifle was actually made by Joh S.; rather I believe he was a dealer. This type rifle was widely provided to dealers in both finished and unfinished(for finishing according to the buyers wishes) for sale. The rifle was proofed in March of 1912, as you guessed. The 550 is the ledger number at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse. The "craftsman marks" are proof marks. The crown G is the mark for barrels firing single projectiles. The crown U is the mark for the View proof, which is a detailed inspection. The crown "F", I believe is a misreading of crown B, which is a Definitive proof, using a provisional proof charge. The rifle was proofed close to the time the proofhouses were changing the marking system. Consequently, no case length was marked, along with the 7.6mm bore dia. According to this and the number of these rifles we see, the "smart money bet"is that this rifle was born as a 8.15x46R. I believe it was relined in the US. This was done to a lot of 8.15x46Rs to make ammo avaliable. You believe it is 5.6x35R Vierling, based on a chambercast. Both the 5.6x35R and the 22 Hornet came from the old blackpowder 22 Win.CF. Consequently, a chamber cast won't show the difference between them. When the 22Hornet was developed, it was given a thicker rim to prevent it being fired in old 22 Win.CF rifles. The rim recess,then,can be used to determine which it is. If the rim recess is deep enough for the Hornet, then that is the caliber. My opinion that it was relined in the US is supported by the lack of the "repair" proof as mentioned by Raimey. As an aside, Vierlings have been chambered for 22 Hornet instead of 5.6x35R vierling, for a good while now. It would be interesting to see if the stock magazine fits 22Hornet or 8.15x46R. Also, Raimey may be able to tell who did make the rifle, or at least the barrel, from the font and form of other marks. Of special interest would be the "SS". This is why, in addition to general interest, that photos are important. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

[J.L.]

Thanks Mike
I sent 7 photos to Raimey he may have them posted soon. The F some from G&A Forum thought might be E for black powder witch might conferm the veirling. If it's been relined it was a great job because I cant tell it, also in cartridges of the world under the veirling is a photo that looks very similar to mine. we will just have to get the photos posted and see what comes up.
Thanks again for the help!
J.L.

[ellenbr]

The 1912 date is correct as it was proofed in the final state as Ford notes. I have a Meffert with a similar bullet trap atop the comb. Does if have a circular button that you push? I see a D.R.G.M. but no associated number. Has the bullet trap hole been modified to accept the latest cartridge? Need additional images of any marks on the tube. I've seen adverts that Waffenfachhändler/firearms merchant Johann Specht(Mr. Woodpecker) peddled ammo and other gun related items in the 1st decade of the 20th century. There's some cartridge associated with a Specht holding 2,4 g of Fasan at the time this sporting weapon experienced proof. I would guess that he had a son named Bruno also during this time as by the late 1920s(1928 for sure), a Bruno Spetch master gunsmith of Bautzen is listed as a top shot of the area.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

5 is the max images to be posted at one instance if any one is interested





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[J.L.]

Raimey
yes to the small round button, I dont know D.R.G.M., and mike was right the barrel has been relined and the trap holes have plastic sleeves poorly centered (must have been by the same jerk that mounted thge scope. I will take pic's of the rest of the stamppings and e-mail them as soon as i get extra hands to hold lights.
I guess this is a production rifle with a relined barrel. I guess the next question is about what is it's value (I know it's worth to me).
J.L.

[mike ford]

JL,
A crown "E" stamp would be a supplementary mark for Express Rifles. I wouldn't think it would be used for 8.15x46R; about the smallest we see with "E" proof is 9.3mm(360). I wouldn't be too hard on whoever lined the barrel and mounted the scope, I wouldn't want him to tell me what to do with my property.I only know I would rather have it in 8.15, I can't speak for anyone else. Mike

[J.L.]

Mike
I'm not upset about what was done, just how it was done. To take such a beautiful rifle and (in my opinion butcher it) and not to care enough to clean up your mess is wrong. If you make a mistake fix it right or dont fix it at all. I havent touched this rifle except to clean and oil untill I knew exactly what I had. There may be some one out there who has been looking for a rifle like this for years and wants it in as origenal condition as possible, and I reolise if you brought it back from the war, can't find ammo and have a kid that likes it you might take it to a smith and have it rebarreled for him

[ellenbr]

Ford, I don't think it is an E at all. Since the Eagle isn't coupled with the Crown over G, it just about had to have been proofed in the final state with the proof pressure being that of the 1st proof.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

There should a corresponding brace of Crown over B & Crown over U on the action.






Some examples of novel single shots proofed in the final state.


Subject marks


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Subject rifle


Somewhat similar rifle


Marks on the above from the same time period. If any one knows the mechanic who is connected to the Lily or Fleur De Lis, I'd really like to know of any & all info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse