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Hello, I'm a new member and this is my first post. I inherited a nice old German Combination Gun. It's a 16ga over a 9.3x72R. I'm having trouble identifying a maker. The barrels are marked "Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen" I have attached some pics of the other proof marks. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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More pics
here are some more pics to help identify. -
tocayo,
The "Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen" only means that the barrels were made from Krupp fluid steel, the Krupp firm is/was located in Essen. The crown N and K.m.G over 13gr means it was nitro proofed for a 13 gram copper jacketed bullet. The crown W means the shotgun barrel is choked, but the amount of constriction is not known. The eagle over crown U means the gon went through a "view" proof after definitive proof. The view proof is a detailed inspection including verification of dimensions. The 16 in a circle means the gun has a 16 ga. 65mm( 2 1/2-2 9/16" chamber. Note that this is shorter than the current standard chamber length of 70mm( 2 3/4"). The 16/1 means the bore diameter ahead of the chamber is about 16.99mm. There is a good bit more that can be learned, but you will have to post photos of the markings on the bottom of the rifle barrels, this will require removing them. I agree ,the gun is nice.
MikeComment
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very nice gun, congratsComment
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Thank you Mike for the info. The only markings under the barrel are two very hard to read markings. Here's the pic.
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tocayo,
Those are not proof marks, they are marks added by someone that worked on the gun, to account for their work. This would be very atypical for the rifle barrel to not have proof marks. The format of these marks would help date the gun, or the proof date could actually be shown(month/year). Information showing where it was proofed could be shown also. Did you actually take the barrels off, or only take the forearm off? It is highly unusual for the shot barrel to have all the proper proofs, and the rifle barrel to have none.
MikeComment
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thank you R. Marshall....Comment
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Thanks Mike,
I'll take them off again (completely off) and go over them again.
JohnnyComment
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tocayo,
The 8.7mm over 72 is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter and case length(only). This is within the range for 9.3x72R, as you surmised. This is the form of marking used after 1911 improvements to the 1891 proof law. It is not dated, so it was likely proofed sometime between 1912 and about 1923, at Suhl proof House( when they started dating them). It was ,then, likely made in or near Suhl. The crown U under an eagle shows a "View" proof after definitive proof of the barrel. The photo is not too clear, but I can make out a "G". A crown G shows the barrel was proofed for a single projectile. There may be other marks I cannot see. If one of them is the word "Nitro" written in block letters, this confirms my guess that it was proofed in Suhl; but if in script letters, disputes that and the gun would have been proofed in Zella-Mehilis( and likely made in or near there). If there is a crown E, this would mean it underwent an "Express" proof. Several, but not all, by any means, I have seen in this caliber, had Express proof.
MikeComment
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Mike
Gee whiz I'm amazed at all this helpful information! I thought I had included a photo of the "Nitro" mark, but I guess it didn't upload. Here it is again. Do you know where I might get an idea of what this gun is worth? I have another German gun (Miller & Val. Greiss) combination gun with hammers. I am probably going to sell one of them. Just don't know yet which one.
I'd like to keep them both, but they need to go to a collector who will appreciate them. Anyway, here's the pic.
Thanks for all you help.
Johnny
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tocayo,
I don't usually estimate the value of someone else's gun I don't have "in hand". You can get an idea of value by checking websites that offer this type gun for sale at a fixed price. Auction sites often have guns listed for a protracted length of time, due to minimum price being established too high. You might learn something from "actual sell price" from successful auction sales, however. If the Miller and Val. Greiss was also inherited I suggest you keep both guns and pass them on to family. Guns such as this often come from someone in the "greatest generation" that answered his country's call for help and deserves to be remembered. If you provide photos of the Miller and Val. Greiss , we will try to sort out information about it also. To establish the rifle's caliber may require making a chamber cast, however.
MikeComment
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Miller & Val. Greiss
Thanks Mike. I'll get some pics of the Miller & Val Greiss and post them. As far as passing on to family, my son is a big anti-gun liberal. (Raised by my ex....lol!).
My dad was indeed part of the "greatest generation". Served in WW2. He was an aircraft mechanic. He met my mother when she drove a truck for the military (Rosie the riveter? Rosie the truck driver).
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tocayo
The 118,35 is the bore(not groove or bullet)diameter, but expressed in gauge measurement similar to shotguns. This system of marking was used pre- 1912. At this time, the case length is not shown as it was after that time. That gauge is one of those found on 9.3x72R rifles as well as others. Normally, a chamber cast would be recommended to determine the nominal caliber, but note that it has a crown "E" proof mark. This is an "Express" proof, which is a little stronger proof. I have seen this mark on several 9.3x72Rs, but not on others. I readily admit that there are a lot of rifles that I have not seen. The gun is chambered for the 16 ga. 65mm shells. The 17/1 mark is a very tight (16.64mm) barrel for 16 ga., but is seen sometimes. The other marks have the same meaning as on the other gun. It was made after early 1893( when the 1893 law came into effect) and before 1912. While not technically correct, this type action is often called a "Roux"? action. Without positive proof, I believe it was made in Suhl for Miller & Val Greiss, who marketed it.
MikeComment
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