Could this be an old German rifle?

[Will_Paladin]

I am researching this old single-shot rifle for a friend & neighbor. She inherited it from her grandfather,
who was a Sheriff in La Junta, Colorado in the late 1880’s-'90’s. It has a very unusual loading mechanism,
one that I’ve never seen before. There are no stamps indicating manufacture or caliber. The only stamps
on the gun are on the underneath side of the barrel under the stock. The stamps there appear to be the
initials, "JC", and another series of letter I can’t make out. There are also some stamped dots as shown
in the picture. It has quite a bit of scroll work on the barrel and other places, also shown. I cleaned it up
as best I could and the rifling looks to be in decent shape. There was a lot of rust on the gun and in the
barrel. The hammer cocks and the trigger works. It weighs just under 6 lbs.

It looks like it takes a "rimmed" cartridge of some sort; I believe it might be a .30 cal size barrel as a 25 acp
falls right through the barrel and a .32 acp is too large for it. (I know these are not rimmed cartridges).
A .30-30 cartridge will fit into the barrel snugly but is too long to seat and allow the "gate" to close.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I can post more pictures if needed.

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[mike ford]

Will_Paladin,
Your friends rifle is a type usually called a Flobert, it seems to lack proof marks, possibly due to the age. However in the fourth photo, there is a mark that could be a "Peron", which was used as a proof mark in Belgium. A lot of these rifles were used in Germany( therefore came back with GIs) but most were made in Belgium and marketed in Germany. They are usually found is .22 caliber or the very similar 6mm Flobert. Some may have been 30 caliber, or 32 caliber, but in rimfire format. Rifles like this were not known to be especially strong and were not available in powerful cartridges. There is a small amount of collector interest in these rifles, but value is highly influenced by condition and nominal caliber. I am not the most knowledgeable person concerning these rifles.
Mike

[Diz]

Will_Paladin,

On close inspection I have to agree with Mike that the mark is a "Perron" and is definitely a Belgium mark. The Perron was the sole proof mark up until 1810 when the letters ELG in an oval became the sole proof mark. That mark carried on until 1853 I believe. I would think that there is an ELG mark somewhere on the gun since Flobert invented the rim fire cartridge in 1845 so it could not have been built before that. The Flobert rim fire cartridges back then were usually either 6 mm or 9 mm caliber and I would suspect this one is a nine. That's about all I can help you with unless you can find more markings somewhere on the gun. Others here may have more and better information.

Thanks, Diz

[ellenbr]

Have Gun Will Travel - Paladin:
Probably a 9mm Flobert. Many times the stamps are on the tube near where the breech block swivels. They are jewels to carry around for dispatching pest & will neutralize a bird in close quarters.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[algmule]

Hello

Could be this http://littlegun.be/ma_collection/be...0rene%20gb.htm but I'm far too tired to check.

I too have one of these Flobert's. Mine is similar to the one in the link and is a 9 mm and if I remember correctly it has all the Belgian proofs.

Kind regards
Peter

[ellenbr]

Moose Snoot, yes it is a similar platform and chambered for the FL No. 3 but I don't see Warnant's fingerprints on the subject longarm. On the Flobert longarm in question is a worn stamp of ? Sch?? but most difficult to discern. Also, the initials JC on Belgian longarms typically denotes last name first & first name last, so the Belgian mechanic could easily be CJ.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Moose Snoot:

From your René Warnant reference, the platform was found protection on March 23rd, 1885 under Nr. 68808 for Julien Warnant of Cheratte. Then on June 25th, 1885 an advancement of the same found protection under Nr. 069430. I guess it is possible that one of the Collet Frères might have had the initials JC?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

The rifle is not on a Flobert, but on a Long Warnant rising block action. These actions were patented by Jean Joseph Warnant, 1845 – 1913, Cheratte near Liege, Belgium, Belgian patents # 023695 of 1868 (original short breechblock) and # 031970 of 1873 (improved long breechblock). Rifles and shotguns on these actions were a staple of the Liege and St.Etienne, France, guntrade until WW1. Such Warnant action guns and rifles were made in many chamberings to order, both rim- and centerfire, from 5mm Flobert to 28 gauge and 14 mm shotgun. They were exported from Liege to all the world. In the 1890s Montgomery Ward imported them to the USA.
From your description it is about .32 caliber. So the 6mm and 7mm flobert cartridges are too small, but a 9mm Flobert bore will easily take a .32 ACP cartridge.9mm Floberts were usually smoothbore anyhow. So imho it is most likely chambered for one of the many forgotten .32 / .320 cartridges, either centerfire "revolver" numbers like 32 short / long Colt or .320 short / long Revolver or one of the obsolete rimfires .32 short / long/ long rifle / extra long. So, first, look at the breechface for the firing pin set up, for a rim- or centerfire cartridge. Then a chamber cast will tell more about the cartridge.

[Axel E]

These Warnant action guns were made by many small shops in and around Liege, like a "cottage industry". According to "Le Qui Est Qui de l'Armurerie Liegeoise" "J" first names Jean, Jules, Joseph, Julien were quite common with the "C" last names Cajot, Cap, Chaineux, Charles, Charlier, Chaumont, Christophe, Closset, Closset-Servais, Coene, Collard, Colleye, Colsoul, Comblain, Coune, Courtois, Crahay to choose from. So it is impossible to identify a JC positively, let alone a possible CJ.

[ellenbr]

Axel E:

I know not why you use the acronym IMHO, as your opinion is anything but humble. But yes, if there is rifling, it could be the something similar to the 9mm - Flobert No. 3 with a solid projectile, also seen as 9mm RWS Flobert Spitzkugeln and variations are seen on Triebel's website:

http://triebel-shop.com/index.php?cP...37&language=en

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Dieudonne Julien Warnant, 1853 – 1910, was a younger brother of Jean Joseph Warnant. In the 1880s he patented two "improvements" to his brother's lifting block action: a spring - loaded extractor and a locking/opening lever. Both improvements were never popular and actual examples are unknown.
Later, the Warnant brothers, Jean and Julien, concentrated on other guns, revolvers, break – open guns and self loading pistols. So the lockwork of the Swiss, the Webley and the Colt double action revolvers is based on a design by Jean Warnant. The tip – up barrel action of the Clement and Steyr pocket pistols was also invented by Jean. Julien held several patents for revolver actions and break-open gun lockwork and ejectors. All in all, Jean had 28 Belgian patents to his name, while Julien held 6.

[Axel E]

But yes, if there is rifling, it could be the something similar to the 9mm - Flobert No. 3 with a solid projectile, also seen as 9mm RWS Flobert Spitzkugeln

Yes, I know this, of course. As I wrote: " 9mm Floberts were USUALLY smoothbore anyhow". That's because of the old German legal rulings: Single loaders up to 6mm Flobert, if rifled, and smoothbores up to 9mm were not rated as "Firearms" and any country boy could carry and use them.
But this rifle can not be a 9mm Flobert, because Will wrote:"a 25 acp falls right through the barrel and a .32 acp is too large for it". A .32ACP aka 7.65 Browning cartridge will easily fall through a 9mm Flobert chamber and way into the barrel. I just tested it. So the bore and chamber of Will's rifle must be something larger than 7mm Flobert, but smaller than 9mm.

[Will_Paladin]

more pictures and information

Thanks to everyone replying to my thread. You all been very helpful about a gun I knew nothing about.
I’m still not certain what caliber it is and whether it’s a center-fire or rimfire. I took "Ellenbr" advice and
looked more closely around the breech block swivels…Voila! I found the stamps I had not noticed before
shown in the 1st picture of this posting. Perhaps they will shed some proof mark light.

As for the caliber, I’m leaning towards a center-fire because of the rifling and the location of the firing pin
in the breech block (pictures included). I measured the bore at the breech with calipers; it measures .810 mm.
One picture shows how far a .32 acp will go into the bore. The bullet will load, the case will not.

Couple more pics in a follow-up post.

Thanks again for your information. Will.

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[Will_Paladin]

follow up post...last pictures

These pictures show the rifling (sorry for my poor photography) and I included a picture of the butt plate
that has the lower end broken off.

Thanks again for your information. Will.

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[mike ford]

Will_Paladin,
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment that the rifle is centerfire. Note the circular mark on the breech block formed by rust pits caused by blackpowder residue. The firing pin is clearly on the edge of the circle, so it must be rimfire. I believe your measurement must be 8.10 mm, not .810mm( maybe your reading was in cm instead of mm). The additional markings at the hinge are clearly Belgian proof marks.
Mike