Waffen Honold Ulm .30-06 Sporter

[mhutchinson]

Good evening,
I just bought a .30-06 Mauser sporter with the words "Waffen Honold Ulm" on top of the barrel. There is no other writing on the rifle. Here are some photographs of it:
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It's a beautiful rifle that I look forward to working on and hunting with. It's got a few hairline cracks but they won't be difficult to repair. I wanted to ask first about the maker. Apparently Waffen Honold was an arms house started by a George Honold who died in the 1920's or 1930's but I cannot find anything more about it on the internet, and I cannot find any way to estimate its age.

Next, I want to inquire about adding a scope mount to the rifle. I do intend to hunt with this rifle and as much as I like iron sights, a scope is simply more practical. However, I want to make sure that it isn't a bad idea to modify a rifle like this. It is a piece of history and I don't want to do anything that would devalue the rifle or do anything that would be considered in bad taste by a knowledgeable collector. Perhaps it isn't a big deal and I can do whatever I want but I want to make sure.

On the subject of scopes and scope mounts, as much as I'd like to use a traditional German claw mount, I just don't know if I could afford it or if I have the skill to fit such things myself. Reputable gunsmiths here in the states charge as much as $1000 for German claw mounts, which is twice what I paid for the rifle. Is there any alternative to the German claw mount that was historically seen on old guild rifles like this?

Thanks,
Matt

[sharps4590]

Purely my impressions and always subject to correction. It appears to me the rifle has already been re-blued and restocked so scoping it shouldn't hurt what value is left. You will also have to change the safety. If it has been re-blued and re-stocked I don't know if I'd go to the expense of claw type mounts. If you haven't, pull the action out of the stock and see if there is any proofs on the bottom of the barrel.

[mike ford]

This rifle is a post WW2 production of a sporting rifle from one of the thousands of surplus Mausers left over from the war. It really has more value as a hunting rifle than as a collectable rifle. If it were mine, I wouldn't be hesitant, at all, to mount a scope in American mounts. If you especially want German mounts, but don't the expense of claw mounts, German swing mounts are an option between American mounts and claw mounts in cost. The rifle has an "after market" Greener type "stalking safety" already installed, so it is not necessary to change safeties. In my opinion, with a decent scope, installed, you can have many years of fine service from this rifle. I am especially fond of set triggers but recognize they take some experience to use safely. You can get used to them in one trip to the rifle range, so you shouldn't be hesitant to do so.
Mike

[mhutchinson]

Purely my impressions and always subject to correction. It appears to me the rifle has already been re-blued and restocked so scoping it shouldn't hurt what value is left. You will also have to change the safety. If it has been re-blued and re-stocked I don't know if I'd go to the expense of claw type mounts. If you haven't, pull the action out of the stock and see if there is any proofs on the bottom of the barrel.

There are two distinct colors on different components that were blued. I wasn't sure if it was reblued or if different components just develop different colors due to differences in chemical makeup or hardness.
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As for the stock, it does have the same number stamped on it as the receiver:
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But the receiver has another number on it that can only be seen under good light:
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Not sure what the fainter number might mean because I've never seen military receiver numbers like that. They're always stamped into the side pretty deeply, and if there were any on this rifle before they would have been ground out along with the maker's marks on the side of the receiver behind the front ring, right?

[mhutchinson]

This rifle is a post WW2 production of a sporting rifle from one of the thousands of surplus Mausers left over from the war. It really has more value as a hunting rifle than as a collectable rifle. If it were mine, I wouldn't be hesitant, at all, to mount a scope in American mounts. If you especially want German mounts, but don't the expense of claw mounts, German swing mounts are an option between American mounts and claw mounts in cost. The rifle has an "after market" Greener type "stalking safety" already installed, so it is not necessary to change safeties. In my opinion, with a decent scope, installed, you can have many years of fine service from this rifle. I am especially fond of set triggers but recognize they take some experience to use safely. You can get used to them in one trip to the rifle range, so you shouldn't be hesitant to do so.
Mike

How do you figure it was made post-WWII? Was it rare for German makers to build rifles in .30-06 before the war? Just curious.

[mike ford]

The style of the stock indicates it is post war. If you post photos of the proof marks we can tell you when( and where) it was proofed. This would be a good approximation of the date it was finished. Pre war 30-06s are uncommon, but are not rare( especially if intended for export). The different colors on the rifle are the result of rebluing with "hot salts" and different alloys of steel. Hard or cast parts are especially prone to changing color over time. Avoiding it requires close control of the solution's temperature, but it doesn't impede the use.
Mike

[mhutchinson]

Here are the only proof marks I could find on the rifle.
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Is there a particular book or any other reference for looking up things like proof marks?

[mike ford]

The marks under the receiver are not proof marks, rather they are marks placed by different workmen, from the original manufacturer of the military rifle, from which your rifle was built. Since the identifying markings were removed during the sporterizing, there is now no way to know the original manufacturer, or even if it was German. The marks we are looking for would be found on the barrel and if my guess is correct, would include one or more "Federal Eagles"( Bundesadler) over a "letter", the letters identifying the particular proof action. There would be a mark, identifying the Proof House. My guess is, the house mark would likely be an "Antler"( for Ulm), or a crosshatched "Shield"( for Munich). Together with these marks, there should also be the date the Proof was performed. If the rifle in newer than I think, and was built after reunification, my information about Proof may be obsolete and therefore incorrect.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Well horse manure...I looked right at the Greener safety and....wwhhhoooooooosh....right over my head!!!

[Diz]

Mike is right about hot-salt blue as the chemistry of the solution and the alloy of the metal all contribute to the end result. I have seen that color on several guns and sometimes the contrast effect can be rather pleasing. In my experience, it doesn't have any affect on rust or wear resistance. The Greener safety is a plus too. You might want to measure the receiver ring with a good caliper or micrometer and report the diameter. It may have been reduced quite a bit and all but obliterated the original serial number if that's what that was. Check for stamps under the barrel while you have it out of the wood too. It is a nice rifle and a good scope and mount would top it off with no harm done. Good luck with it. Diz

[mhutchinson]

Mike is right about hot-salt blue as the chemistry of the solution and the alloy of the metal all contribute to the end result. I have seen that color on several guns and sometimes the contrast effect can be rather pleasing. In my experience, it doesn't have any affect on rust or wear resistance. The Greener safety is a plus too. You might want to measure the receiver ring with a good caliper or micrometer and report the diameter. It may have been reduced quite a bit and all but obliterated the original serial number if that's what that was. Check for stamps under the barrel while you have it out of the wood too. It is a nice rifle and a good scope and mount would top it off with no harm done. Good luck with it. Diz

The front ring is 1.39"

There are no markings under the barrel. I looked at it under a good light and couldn't find anything. There is the "Waffen Honold Ulm" on top of the barrel and the "30.06" on the side but that's it. Everything I can see is in the photos posted here.

[mhutchinson]

While I'm at it with the questions...is there any potential harm in glass bedding the action and free floating the barrel?

It needs to be refinished anyway so now would be the time to do it. There are some hairline cracks near the wrist so I'll have to use a little acraglas there to make sure no further damage is done.

[Diz]

mhutchinson, I believe the standard diameter for the large ring is 1.410" which would indicate that about 0.020" was removed by your measurement. That's only .010" per side and may be why there is a shadow of the old numbers left. I will have to leave it to others more knowledgeable as to why there are no barrel markings. For myself, I am inclined to glass bed the action and chamber area of a working rifle while leaving the barrel free. Others might add a pad of glass near the fore end tip but I find it tends to move the point of impact as the weather changes. Hopefully others will comment as well. Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

The rifle was put together in Germany and should have been Proofed. I won't say that it is impossible that it wasn't, but the most probable reason for the lack of Proof Marks would be if the re-blue job was done in the US and they were removed in the process. If the rifle were assembled in the US, it wouldn't require Proof marks, but the barrel seems new and wouldn't be marked "Honold" unless assembled there. On the other hand, it seems unlikely that Proof marks be removed while leaving the workmen's touch marks under the receiver. As the King of Siam said, in the movie," is a puzzlement". I agree with Diz, nothing you do to the rifle to make it more satisfactory to you will hurt the value.
Mike

[Axel E]

Maybe an explanation for the lack of proofmarks: The rifle is obviously built on a scrubbed WW2 98k action, just like the majority of postwar German hunting rifles. It shows some "modern" features like the monte carlo buttstock and skipline checkering, but some "traditional" ones too, like butterknife bolthandle, shotgun trigger guard, Greener side safety and slim "Schnabel" foreend. So I tend to date the rifle to about 1960. As the .30-06 then was about as (un-)popular in Germany as the 7x64 Brenneke was in the US, it was certainly made for an American customer. Though Ulm, on the left bank of the Danube river, was in the French occupation zone post-WW2, Bavarian Neu Ulm on the other bank had a large US Army garrison from 1951 to 1991. So any GI could make a walk over a bridge to Honold's shop.
Waffen Honold does not exist any more, but in 1970 it was still run by a Vincens Huber. Contrary to popular belief not every gun made in Germany had to be proofed by a government proofhouse. A gun had to be proofed before being released to private ownership in the German domestic market. If exported, German proofs were not mandatory for a gun to be exported, but many importers required it. So my guess: Waffen Honold had the rifle assembled for an American customer from the other side of the river, maybe ordered by a man who would return to the USA in short order. To save delay and expenses they delivered the rifle unproofed to the extraterritorial US installation just over the river, from where it was immediately exported to the USA.