US/French/German Peabody Rifle

[w10085]

I picked up a Peabody rifle on one of the auctions sites recently and wanted to know a little about the German history part. It was made in the US by Providence Tool Company around 1871. It is technically a Model 1870 Spanish Model in 43 Spanish (as would be expected). This one was sold to France during the Franco Prussian War and was either captured by the Prussians or received as war reparations. It has a German Vorrat marking on the chamber and barrel (see, I learned something from one of my previous posts!) which means it was in inventory somewhere in 1893. Does anybody know if these were just sold as hunting rifles to consumers or if they were sold off in large lots as military rifles? I got it because some of the US State Militias were armed with similar rifles in 43 Spanish during the 1870's and I collect both US and German rifles. This one was a little different and I wondered what may have happened between 1872 and 1893 with it kicking around in Germany somewhere. Thanks in advance.

[mike ford]

w10085,
Off the top of my head, I opine the rifle was in someone's "stock" for commercial sale in May of 1893. The Governments rifles did not need commercial proofs, therefore not the Vorrat mark either. I don't know if it is possible to know if it was sold off as surplus captured or repatriated property by the Prussians; or if it was sold off as surplus property by the French Government; or if it was sold off for private use by an individual as a "War Trophy". I suppose also that an individual may have had it as a "War Trophy" and had it marked voluntarily, with out intending to sell it at all. This is a lucky find, both for the "story" and condition. It is one that will be easy to load for and shoot now, whereas at one time original cases were hard to find and mostly Berdan Primed( even American made ones). To make matters worse, they were often primed with mercuric primers, or were stored for a hundred years loaded with black power, both of which could make surviving cases unusual. Now, in addition to expensive Bertram cases, useable cases can be easily made from available 45-90 cases. Axel will be better aware of European history and may have specific knowledge of your rifle's "story".
Mike

[Peter K]

Nice rifle. I have a Remington rolling block in that caliber along with about 90 cases made from 348 Winchester cases. The procedure for making them uses the same procedure as is used to make 43 Mauser out of 45/90 cases. I think Mike Ford describes the details of this procedure somewhere in these threads. Casting and sizing dies are available in .439 which is what I use.
Peter

[mike ford]

The procedure for making 43 Spanish from 45-90 is much simpler than making 43 Mauser, all you have to do is FL size them, Fireform( center in chamber by wrapping a strip of tape, etc. around the head), and trim to length. Some rifles may require adjusting rim diameter or thickness, my Rem. Rolling Block doesn't.
Mike

[DreyseM65]

I recently bought an unfired example of this rifle. I bought both Bertram and Jamison (which I liked best) Spanish 43 brass and worked up some loads. While the Spanish 43 generally used a .439 bullet, the Peabodys tend to use a .446 bullet, which is the Mauser 43. That is what mine shoots well with.

[w10085]

Thank you for the information. I have read several sources that many of these were either captured by the Prussians or received as war reparations. I expect most were reparations because I'm sure the French wanted to get rid of these oddball rifles. I plan on shooting it so the cartridge forming info is helpful. I have also read that 348 Winchester may fit these without reworking the head where that won't work on a Rolling Block. We shall see when it arrives. I didn't know if anybody had period advertisements showing these sold off as sporting rifles.

[Diz]

w10085,

Mike is right about using 45-90 brass and being easiest to form. My suggestion is to slug the barrel so you know exactly what bullet size you need before heading off in any direction. A measurement of the rim recess in the barrel will help determine if the rims need to be turned as well. Are you planning to shoot black powder or smokeless? There is plenty of help here either way. I have been wanting a Peabody for quite awhile myself so best of luck with yours.

Diz

[Axel E]

According to a French forum,
https://translate.google.de/translat...abines-peabody
France obtained about 33000 Spanish model Peabody rifles, serial number range 52000 – 110000, through the British dealer Austin Baldwin, in1870-71. Arriving late they had but little impact on the Franco – German war. Many were surrendered to the Germans, the rest soon sold off to the international arms trade. Other than the French Mle 1866 Chassepot rifles, no use of these Peabodies by any German army, Prussian, Bavarian, Saxonian, Wuerttrmberg, is known. apparently they were sold , after some time, to the international arms trade. Many of these rifles are marked with the crown/V vorratszeichen. So they were still in stock at some German arms dealers in March 1893. The 1911 ALFA, Adolf Frank, Hamburg, export catalog, on 18 pages offered surplus military long arms, from flintlock muskets to Mausers and Mannlichers. Among them are Peabody rifles and carbines, about 2000 still in stock.Apparently these offeings were not meant for the civilian market. Instead, they were meant mostly as offers to warring parties in third world countries. No use of Peabodies as sporting rifles in Germany is known. IMHO the arms dealers had the Vorratszeichen applied to all their rifles in stock in 1893, just in case of future civilian orders. Without the crown/V mark they would have to submit such rifles to costly civilian proof in case of releasing them to the domestic civilian market.

[DreyseM65]

Mine is in the 70,000 serial number range. The French were desperately short of rifles in 1870 during the Franco-Prussian War. They sent agents to the US to procure arms. They purchased 39,000 Peabodys in 43 Spanish, and as Axel presented, about 33,000 were delivered. The French didn't get the chance to issue them before the war ended.

I slugged the bore which is why I knew to use a .446 bullet. Online research yielded that is the norm for the Spanish Peabodys. I tried some .439 bullets just as a test. I found that the Jamison brass has a thinner rim, and the Bertram brass sometimes did not allow the breech to close. I am not into reworking brass, so I stuck with factory stuff. There is alot of load data around, and I settled on using 20.5 grains of 5744 smokeless. That gives a 385 grain bullet about 1108 fps, and I have fired several hundred rounds over the last few months. Tough rifle to zero with military sights, so a friend of mine made a new slip-on front sight in order for me to compete in the "military rifle" category at our Schützenverein. Even with a tough trigger pull I can get sub 2 MOA groups at a 100 yards.

Fun to shoot such a historical rifle that went from the US to France, then to Germany, and then to the US.

[Peter K]

Thank you for the information. I have read several sources that many of these were either captured by the Prussians or received as war reparations. I expect most were reparations because I'm sure the French wanted to get rid of these oddball rifles. I plan on shooting it so the cartridge forming info is helpful. I have also read that 348 Winchester may fit these without reworking the head where that won't work on a Rolling Block. We shall see when it arrives. I didn't know if anybody had period advertisements showing these sold off as sporting rifles.

The heads on my 348 Win. cases all have the rims pushed up into a Mauser style A-base. This was done to adjust the thickness of the base to fit the rifle. I also have some original 43 Spanish cases that have very thick flat bases.

Wow, 2 MOA is very good for an oldie like that. The history of these rifles was also very interesting.
Peter

[mike ford]

A 43 Spanish cartridge with a .446 bullet is pretty much a 44-77 Remington/Sharps. That makes me wonder if Peabody used existing or available 44 barrels for the contract. The head diameter of 348 Win. is listed as .553" while 43 Spanish is .516" and 45-90 is .501-505", depending on the manufacturer. The 45-90 is within the .010" commonly accepted tolerance for head diameter.
Mike

[w10085]

I slugged the bore tonight using a 45 ACP bullet. It's hard to measure with three grooves but I'm sure a .451 bullet will work fine in it. I'm surprised about that. The .348 Winchester will not chamber like some people said it might. Looks like the 45-90 may be my best bet for brass. I'll keep you all updated.

[Leatherman]

You might want to fire form a few cases and see what fits in the case. I know of one guy who showed me that he is useing a bullet over .020" larger than bore in his Peabody 41 Spanish and he wins a lot of matches with it. He helped me getting my double rifle shooting by fire forming the cases and finding a bullet that was .019" larger than land to land but fit perfectly in the fired case neck. I won the double rifle shoot with that rifle two months later at Friendship Indiana. My next project was a Collath stalking rifle that measured out to be a shorter version of the 43 Spanish with the standard .437"bore. I was shooting .439" bullets but was concerned with how much I had to work the necks of the brass back to the .439" bullets. Upon measureing the fired cases I found that a .466" bullet fit perfectly and all I need to do is seat the bullet with no crimp in the fired cases. Now this little rifle is amazing me how accurate it is. I guess now I have a shorter version of the 44/77 Remington / Sharps. I must mention that both these rifles have long tapered leads in the chamber which allows the lead bullets to swage down easily. This method of sizeing bullets to fired cases is used by most black powder cartridge target shooters useing vintage rifles and many reload their cases right at the shooting bench, hand seating the bullet

[mike ford]

w10085,
Your revelation that the groove diameter of your rifle is .450"+, leads me to suspect your rifle may be chambered for 11.5x57R Spanish Reformado, rather than the 11.15x58R Spanish Remington. The Reformado was adopted in 1867 and replaced by the 11.15x58R Spanish Remington Aka 43 Spanish in 1871, so the time period fits. I would not say the 43 Spanish is impossible because the time period of the contract with Peabody is about the same as the change from Reformado to 43 Spanish. There was a lot of overlap, where both cartridges were being used( my sample of the Reformado was brought back by a Great Uncle, from the Spanish-American War/ Philippine insurrection, which was at the turn of the century). Both cartridges are similar enough that the differences in case dimensions can be within manufacturing tolerances, causing misidentification( base diameter of Reformado .525" vs. .516" for the 43 Spanish and case length of 2.26" for the Reformado vs 2.25" for the 43 Spanish.) Other than bullet diameter (. 439" vs .454") and case shape ( Reformado has less "neck"), there is not much to tell them apart. I always say, though, that if you can buy or make cases that work and can make bullets that fit; it doesn't make much difference what you call the cartridge. The Mall Mart is not going to have any in stock, anyway. BTY I have similar experience as Leatherman with needing larger bullets than the "book diameter"( I shoot .452" bullets in my Mod 71 Mauser), so if you need to do that, either he or I can help you.
Mike

[Diz]

That's a nice bit of sleuthing Mike. My reference lists the Reformado bullet at .453" and the Spanish Remington at .441" so the slug size does give a clue.. Both are listed as having rims of .661" and base diameters of .526" but slightly different lengths. The Spanish Remington does show a distinct shoulder and would certainly tell the truth on this one from fireforming or a chamber cast. Interesting. Thanks, Diz