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[Drew]

I am new to this sight and joined for some information on a gun that was given to me by a family member. Her father acquired it in Germany during WWII. I would like to know what the markings mean on the attached picture. It is a rifle shotgun combo. I assume the shotgun is a 16 ga. Modern 16 ga shell will load but the rim will not seat. I think the rifle side is a 9.3x72R but I am not sure. Any help in deciphering these markings would be appreciated. Thanks.

[mike ford]

Drew,
We would enjoy seeing the entire gun, but only one photo was attached. This is what we can tell from that photo. The gun was proofed in November 1931, by the Suhl proof . The 16 in a circle means it has a standard 16 ga chamber, which at that time would have been 65mm (2 1/2-2 9/16"), instead of todays 70mm (2 3/4") standard. The 16 (by itself) is the bore diameter, ahead of the chamber. The crown S is the proofmark for shot. While I can't see one, because of glare, a crown W would mean the barrel is choked( amount not shown). On the rifle barrel, the crown G, means it was proofed for a single projectile (bullet), the crown U is the sign for the View proof, which was a detailed inspection and verification of dimensions, the two eagles above the u are for the provisional proof and definitive proof( using provisional proof load). As you thought, the rifle is chambered for the 9.3x72R, for an 11gram (169.8grain) copper jacketed bullet (Km.G 11 gr). The crown E means it was given an Express proof, which was a little "stronger" than the normal Nitro proof. There seems to be something next to the bullet type and weight, but I can't make it out. Ammunition is currently available in the US ( I believe there is a box for sale in WTB/WTS on this site). I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/abo...dentification/ and you'll need to scroll down.

I can't really make out but it looks as if there is Simson & Co, Suhl trademark on each tube but as I can't make it out for sure I'm not swearing by it.

As for the circled 16, which is just about visible on the barrel flat(s), it tells you that the chamber for the scatter tube isn't shorter than 65 mm (or thereabout). Also, I believe you're right about the cartridge for the rifled tube being 9,3x72R. 8,8 is the bore diameter.

Drew, welcome to the forum.

EDIT: mike ford beat me to it. mike ford, left of KmG and 11 gr is crown N.

Kind regards
Peter

[Drew]

IMG_0161.jpgHere is a picture of the gun

[Drew]

Another of the markings on the rifle sideIMG_0163.jpg

[Drew]

Thank you for the information. I am going to have my family member write down the story on how her father came about this firearm. Even though I will probably never shoot it I would like to have a box of ammunition for it. A local gun store carries the 9.3x72r ammunition. I am not sure how easy it is to find the 2 1/2 inch 16 ga ammunition.

[mike ford]

Drew,
The 2 1/2" 16 ga. Ammo is available. If you live near, or in a major city, check with the largest dealer in town. If they don't have it, they might order it for you. You should be able to order it yourself, from sources you find on the internet. Just pick the one closest to you. The store that carries the 9.3x72R may also help you. I encourage you to shoot it, and maybe even load ammo for it, it will be a "Hoot". This gun is likely part of your family's history and should stay within the extended family. BTW, it looks like a nice gun to have,
Mike

[Drew]

Thanks, Mike and Peter for the information. I live about 20 minutes away from Whittaker Guns in West Louisville, KY (best gun store in KY). The next time I am there I will see if they have the 16 ga. 2 1/2" shells. I have seen the 9.3X72r there.

[Drew]

I forgot to ask in earlier posts. Where is a good place to look for an era scope for this firearm? Who manufactured them? My wife has a friend from her hometown that currently lives in Germany. Would it be easier for her to find one over there? Thanks for any info.

[mike ford]

Drew,
A scope isn't a problem, mounting it is. Claw mounts, such as the rifle had, are a custom made item to fit one make and model of scope. You didn't say where, in Germany, your wife's friend lives, but if it is within driving range of Wuerzburg, I have a suggestion. Ernst Apel Wuerzburg (EAW) ( near the back gate of the old American Kaserne, Leighton Barracks, known as the "Flugplatz" by the Germans) has a system to convert the claw mount bases to swing mount. There are three variations of rear base. This system can be mounted by most any competent American gunsmith. EAW would need to know the scope to be mounted, including the precise diameter of the scope tube, and the distance between the bases on the rifle. You can find various used scopes on the internet, but you should be cautious and select one with good optics, and avoid the temptation to choose one with the top bases already soldered to the tube. Choosing one with a straight tube would be helpful in locating the scope for eye relief. I wouldn't worry much about finding a "proper scope", just find one that fits your needs, and don't worry if it isn't German. There are people in the US that can mount a scope in claw mounts, New England Custom Guns is one, but there are others. When you receive your first WAIDMANNSHEIL, there will be a couple pages of corporate members, some of which may be able to help you.
Mike

[Diz]

Drew,

2-1/2" 16 gauge is easy to get.

Check out RST - http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx

Call them and they will be happy to help you out. Welcome to the forum.

Diz

[Drew]

Hello all who provided answers to my question a few years back. I have one more question, I purchased a box of 9.3x72r ammunition for this gun. I have not purchased any 16 gauge shells yet. I have a 16ga 2 3/4 shotgun shell that I tried to load into the shotgun side. I know in previous replies I am supposed to use 2 1/2 shells but a neighbor gave me a 2 3/4 to test fit. The rim of the shell will not seat in the relief cut at the end of the chamber (not sure if that is the right terminology. The shell is not bottoming out in the chamber. I am a little puzzled. Would the rim diameter of a 2 1/2 shell differ from a 2 3/4 shell? I have attached a picture of the 2 3/4 shell chambered. As you can see, the rim will not seat. Thanks in advance for any replies!

[mike ford]

Drew,
I am a little bit puzzled by this also. Current length shells should not be used in 65mm chambers, but people do, from time to time. I have never seen the problem you have with this chamber, however. Is the shell your neighbor gave you made of plastic or is it an older paper shell. Older paper shells are often swollen from absorbing moisture from the air. This could cause it not to fully chamber. If it is a plastic factory loaded shell, in good condition, the problem could be with the rim recess cut. If an inspection of the rim recess doesn't indicate dirt, rust, or other obstruction; you should have it checked by a local gunsmith. While not a gunsmith, I would be happy to do this for you, but I live too far away and such a check must be done "hands on". Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Mike

[Drew]

The shell I have been testing fit with is a modern plastic shell. It is not binding and chambers with the exception of the shell rim. There is no damage or rust on the rim recess. I am just as puzzled. I kind of thought it was maybe in Germany the sizing was a little different than in the USA. It would be nice to shoot. I can afford 16 ga more than the 9.3x72rs at $70 per 20 a few years ago. Bet they are double that now

[mike ford]

Drew,
Your latest answers have eliminated the possible easy "fixes" and I'm afraid that leaves having a local gunsmith adjust the rim recess cut. Since the gun was proofed in 1931, I would have bet the View Proof would have discovered a non-standard rim recess. This would be simple enough that you could do it within a few minutes, but a piloted cutter would cost a fair amount, likely more than a gunsmith would charge to do the work. 9.3x72R ammo is likely a little more expensive than a few years ago, but not twice as much. The answer to the cost of 9.3x72R ammo is to handload it yourself ( my opinion). The cases left over from purchased ammo are re-useable for several loadings and the process is fun and is within your ability. I enjoy making my own bullets, but they are available from commercial sources, if you do not. This is a fine gun and you seem interested; I hope you find help to be able to use it. If you are unable to find a local gunsmith, there are some that advertise in the GGCA publications.
Mike