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New member here but not new to German Sporting rifles. I picked up a R Stahl stalking rifle last week. I slugged the barrel and got .420 so Ii assume it is 10.5X47R pending a chamber cast. I’m excited because I think it is a cool old rifle but I have some questions. The proofs appear to be English from my research. I would appreciate other opinions. The rear sight is missing. I found one picture on the web that showed a tag-type sight along with something mounted on the flange on top of the barrel. What sights do I need to be looking for? It’s not an 1871 Mauser action I don’t think because the bolt is different and it does not open as far. What was this rifle built off of? Any other information (or corrections) would be greatly appreciated. And yes, I plan on shooting it eventually but that will be some ways off. Thanks!
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No, those are Vorrat or on-hand stamps noting the sporting arm was on the shelves @ a retailer or maker in early 1893.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse -
w10085,
Raimey is absolutely correct that the marks on your rifle are "Vorrat " or "before law"( in our useage- pre-law) signs, rather than Proof Marks per-se. The 1891 proof law came into effect on April 1, 1893, and guns in dealers "stock" on that date were so marked to show they were made before the law came in to effect, therefore didn't require the new proof marks. This give you a good idea of the date of completion. Modifications of the M 71 design, from full size to almost miniature , were used by many makers in a wide variety of cartridges. The 10.5x47R was one of the more popular of these and until you make the chamber cast, it is as good a guess as any. For this type cartridge( MB or Mauser Base) the rim of 45-70 cases can be re-formed to make useable substitutes. One of our new members makes sights, such as those you need. You can find samples of his work in the WTB/WTS section.
MikeComment
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If it is 10.5 X47R and you handload CH-4D has the dies and Graf's had some 9.5 X 47R brass that could be necked up. Accurate Molds has a suitable mold. Cool old cartridge, ballistics are nearly identical to our 40-82 WCF, just a tad bit slower. I worked up a BP load for my combination gun so chambered, great fun!!Comment
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I wouldn't order dies from CH4 right off the bat. Rather send them a chamber casting that they can compare to what their 10.5x47r is. There are many variations of both 9.5 and 10.5 x47R . My 10.5x47 uses a 50 caliber base cartridge and I made my brass out of 50/90. My bore groove measured .412 but fired brass accepted .429" (44magnum) bullets and so I don't neck size and just crimp the bullet with 44 mag seating die. I get 1300 fps with a slightly reduced load of 2f black powder and a 250 grain lead bullet. This is in a double rifle and I could use a heavier bullet to help it regulate but it shoots great with this bullet and reduced load. I also have a 9.5x47 double rifle drilling that the CH4 dies do not match the chamber.Comment
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No arguing with Leatherman's advice on the dies. I was fortunate Dave's dies worked for forming cases and loading my 10.5. I made my cases from 11.15 X 60R brass which had been formed from 348 WCF. I don't remember the measurements of my rifle off the top of my head other than the case mouth of a fired case is smaller than Letherman's. I'm shooting a 270 gr. bullet over 61 or 62 grs. of Ffg Schuetzen and the velocity from my rifle I want to remember is close to 1400, like 1360-1380.....I think. For whatever reason I do remember the 40-82 WCF is a 260 gr. bullet at around 1450 fps. Good grief....one thing I can remember and another I can't. I better check my drivers license to see if I missed a birthday....
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Pictures of the bottom of the barrel and receiver.Comment
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A little out of focus and a skosh to much light. Looks like IK initials. Anyone think this is a Vogelbüchsen example or for the Vogelschiessen?
Cheers,
Raimey
rseComment
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Such rifles were advertised as "Scheiben- and Birschbüchse", Target-and-stalking rifle.
Meant for the hunter who wanted to do some target practice and use the same rifle for hunting small deer etc.
These rifles could be had in a veriety of single shot actions or lock systems: break action, the different falling or tilting blocks, or some Mauser variants as this one
Main differences to normal hunting rifles:
- May be somewhat heavier than a normal hunting rifle, but not as heavy as a "dedicasted" target rifle
- adjustable sights
- a target cartridge, lighter than the regular big game hunting cartridges. Your rifle is quite early, so 10.5x47R. Later the 8,15x46R took over
A "Vogelbüchse" was heavier and used large caliber, say 20 or 16 gauge cartridges
Regards fuhrmannComment
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Many thanks there Fuhrmann. So was the Vogelbüchse the basis or idea for those Remo Poplar, etc.?
Cheers,
Raimey
rseComment
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These are copies from the 1910 Burgsmüller catalog.
w10085, the fist page shows some rifles similar to yours. Will give you some idea on the correct rear sight and diopter.
Raimey, the other page is on Vogelbüchsen. Note the weight, 6,5 to 9 kg. I see no connection to those Remo shotguns.
Regards, fuhrmannComment
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Thanks for the catalog pictures. They are interesting. I found this sight on Gunbroker for $250 (I didn't buy it). Is this basically the correct rear sight? Thanks,Comment
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w10085,
Yes, it is one of the correct type sights. It mounts on the barrel. Another correct type is a Diopter( peep) type, that mounts on the tang. Which type got used depended on the course of fire for the particular match. Diopter sights were not allowed to be used in some types of matches. BTW, for an original sight, I think you would have to be pretty lucky to find one much cheaper.
MikeComment
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And you'll get to make your own double ended, open end wrench for adjustments....unless you can find one. I didn't even try and just filed out a wrench.Comment
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w10085,
Sharps likes to do everything the easy way! If you manage to get a sight with adjustments like this there are a number of companies that make eight point sockets specifically for square nuts and bolts in both metric and inch. Put it on the end of a 1/4" driver and you are in business.
Quick question about the rifle to anyone that wants to answer. What is the ram rod used for on a cartridge rifle?
Thanks, DizComment
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