New drilling

[Ron Vella]

Hello all, I'm a newbie here. I've just acquired a drilling by Miller & Val Greiss, Munchen. The calibres are 16 x 16 over 6.5 x 58R Sauer. On the top of the right-hand receiver wall, and on the rifle barrel, is stamped the letters HS in small block letters. Would anyone here know what that refers to? The gun looks very much like a Sauer to me, but I'm not familiar with an H. Sauer. I started making brass out of Canadian military .303 British, 1944 production. I made the mistake of turning the rims to .500" and the bases to .433", per Cartridges of the World. I realized as soon as I chambered one that the rim and base were too small. It turns out, that in this particular gun, the .303 rim and base dimensions fit perfectly without any modification whatsoever. It's always amazed me, how the Germans, always renowned for their engineering prowess, were all over the map with chamber, bullet, and cartridge dimensions. This assumes of course, that the data shown in COTW is correct. Certainly one finds many errors there. As an example, in issue 13 it shows bullet diameter of .264", changed from the correct .260' in previous issues.

[mike ford]

Ron,
First of all, you are welcome here, and we will do our best to help you. I or some other member may give you incorrect info, but you can be sure that if that happens, someone else will straighten us out. Miller & Val Greiss was a well known firm that marketed guns made for them (although may have been finished "in house"), in Suhl, Belgium, maybe Zella-Mehilis or Ferlach. I think we can sort the origin of your drilling out, if you will post photos of it including all the markings, especially proof marks( located under the barrels). A chamber cast and slugging the barrel may be necessary to precisely ID the caliber. I say this, because your initial attempt to fabricate cases, indicate dimensions in the head/rim area, closer to those of 6.5x54R (sometimes listed as 6.5x53R in Austria and the 3 might be misread as an 8). In a recent article about the 6.5x58R S&S, in WAIDMANNSHEIL, there is a discussion about fabricating cases from 9.3x72R and original length 38-55 cases. The 6.5x54R and 6.5x58R S&S, are quite different in appearance and even a normally unreliable chamber cast, such as from wax or packed tissue paper, will likely show the difference. Likewise the two cartridges usually have different bullet diameters( as you noted) of .260-.262"in 6.5x58R S&S vs. .265-.268" in 6.5x54R Mann. Your observation that there are many errors in COTW is well founded also, including for other cartridges as well.
Mike

[Ron Vella]

Thanks Mike. The very first thing that I did was a CerroSafe cast of the chamber, leade, and bore. It defiintely IS the 6.5 x 58 R Sauer. Groove diameter is .260" which is common with them. Proof-marked as 6.2mm-58 1/2. All three barrels are stamped with clear "Nitro" proofs. Also the normal Stahl Mantle Gesosch as well. Also marked for the 8 gram bullet.

[mike ford]

Ron,
There is no doubt then that it is 6.5x58R S&S. I am a little perplexed that the head and rim of 303 British cases fit the chamber, without reduction. I had been toying with the idea of making a set of swaging dies to convert 303 British and/or 30-40 Krag cases to 6.5x58R/8x58R/ 8x57R-360, when I get over the effects of prostate cancer treatments. I had been recommending the use of original length 38-55 cases for these. I encounter resistance to this old solution, because they result in short cases, although the 6.5x58R cases are not too short. There is also some resistance because the head diameter is smaller( .422 vs .433"), but if you center the case in the chamber, they fireform without problems. Of course a chamber must be larger than the cartridge, but I wouldn't expect much over .438-.440", certainly not .454-.455". BTW, the form you cited for proof marks shows you can eliminate Belgium or Ferlach as the origin of your drilling. If the word Nitro is written in block letters, it was made in/around Suhl; if script letters, then Zella-Mehlis. The lower case hs on the receiver and rifle barrel could be the mark of the maker, but it could be the mark of a worker that did one of the operations, such as action filer, necessary in building it. If it were only on the barrel, it would more than likely be the barrel makers mark. The idea that it could be the makers mark is not unfounded. Manufacturers that made guns "for the trade" often marked them in a similar manner, but more often with a "logo" house mark. I am not up on these marks, but determining if it is from Suhl or from Zella-Mehlis would be helpful to those that are. Photos would be helpful, but I am old enough that I haven't learned how to post them. If you also can't, there are other members here that will help you, if you can email some to them. As it stands now, we don't know if it is a hammer or hammerless gun, top/side/or underlever gun, box/blitz/or sidelock gun.
Mike

[Ron Vella]

Mike,
It's a hammerless, top-lever, scallopped-back boxlock. Ill try to get some photos once I've re-assembled it. I'm in the process of a good cleaning and freshening up the wood a bit.

[mike ford]

Great.
Mike

[Ron Vella]

In order to load for this calibre, I had to swage jacketed bullets down to .260". I machined the two dies that you see in the photo. One takes a bullet from .264" to .262", the second from .262" down to .260". Problem was, even my RCBS A-4 loading press doesn't have the power necessary to do the job. It cost me about $30 to cobble together the hydraulic press that you see here. I already had the chunk of aluminum I-beam. The 3/4" threaded rod, nuts, and washers, cost about $20 at Home Depot. The little 2 ton jack was on special at my local Canadian Tire store for $9.59! The setup may be a little crude, but it has more than enough power to do the job with ease, albeit a mite slow. I found that if I tried to go directly from .264" down to .260', in one step, it distorted the bullets like crazy! Doing it in two stages produces perfect bullets every time.

[sharps4590]

Hey Ron!! And, welcome to the forum. I've been following your thread but hadn't replied until now as I had nothing to add. Other than knowing the 6.5 X 58R exists I'm completely ignorant of the cartridge. I do appreciate and enjoy reading about how you worked up the bullets and loads as I enjoy doing the same thing. I can't see the picture of your press but that could be my computer. If it works, that's all that's required. It doesn't have to be pretty!!!! Your drilling sounds nice, can't wait to see pictures of it.

Vic

[mike ford]

Ron,
That is great, nice work BTW. In this area we used to have "truck load" tool sales, and the press I use to form cases came from one of those. It is essentially like yours, except upside down, and not as convenient to use as yours. I am able to use my old " Rockcrusher" to take .321" or .323" bullets to .318", in one step. While I won't say there is no distortion, I will say I didn't notice any. It seemed to take not much effort. You didn't mention using any lubricant, but I found a good lubricant makes all the difference in the world. I used lanolin usually, but when I left the top off and it dried up, I tried "STP". It seemed to work fine, also . Another difference is I use a "ring die" to size bullets and the "rings" are only 1/4- 3/8" long. I suspect this requires less force than pushing a bullet through a longer die. You might find it helpful if you go back and relieve the die, ahead of and behind a shorter .260" section. I would suggest the section "ahead" be relieved to .264" with a highly polished tapered "lead in". The section "behind" can be relieved to what ever diameter is convenient. The .264" section should help guide the bullet and help with the distortion. I don't mean this as an insult, if you have already done these things, please don't take it as such; your work proves you are a capable machinist. I find it much easier to get a loading die to "run true", if I turn it into a split threading die( not a solid re-threading die), and chuck the threading die while lining the loading die up, using the tail stock center. There happens to be another thread here about a different 6.5x58R rifle and I believe a comparison between it and this one will be very helpful to other 6.5x58R owners.
Mike

[Ron Vella]

Mike,
The first die that I machined was a ring die, but the bullets were coming out bent. I'm using Imperial sizer die wax by the way, better than anything else that I've ever used.

[mike ford]

Ron,
I learned in the Army- " If it ain't broke-don't fix it, and you started the thread by reporting good groups. Did you form cases with the press in the photo? Are you able to form them from .303 British, without turning the head/rim? In addition to guns, I'm a tool junkie, what kind of lathe is that in the photo? It reminds me of one I had once, except mine didn't have the oiler on the head stock. Is that a "Follow Rest"( Traveling steady) hanging next to the "Steady Rest"( Fixed steady) on the wall?
Mike

[Ron Vella]

drilling

I finally got around to taking some photos of this gun:
Here's one of the proofmarks:

This a a canvas and leather case that I had on hand. I've reconfigured and relined the interior to accommodate the gun and the accoutrements that I've put together:


As you see in this photo, there were about a dozen drilled, tapped, and plugged holes in the top rib. I machined a pair of Weaver Grand Slam bases so that they straddle the rib, rather than sitting atop it. This positions the bases low enough that when the scope is removed, the iron sights are useable:

These are Weaver extra-high, Lever-Lock Rings. They fit the bases perfectly, provide for quick removal or installation, and give very good return to zero. Also, they position the scope high enough so that when the rifle selector button is slid forwards, the rear sight clears the scope's objective bell:


I'd be interested to know if any member can identify the maker from these photos. Except for the angle of the Greener safety, it looks like a Sauer Model 32 to me. All of the Sauers that I've seen had the safety installed at about a 45 degree angle. The Merkel model 52 had the safety installed horizontally like this but everything else, including the rifle calibre, say Sauer to me!

[mike ford]

Ron,
First of all, In my opinion, you have put together a nice hunting kit, you can be proud of it. I don't recognize the maker, from the photos. While I am often wrong, I think it is built on an Anson and Deely type action with "hanging" interupting sears, rather than a "Blitz" or trigger plate action. This may be a hint to someone that knows more than I. The barrel bundle was likely hard soldered or brazed together, but the rest of the ribs were soft soldered, with pretty narrow joints. This means the rear scope base was screwed to a part of the rib that is solidly attached, but the front one is attached where it is less so. It wouldn't be a bad idea to check it every once in awhile. It helps matters though that the 6.5x58R is not a heavy recoiling cartridge. Maybe Axel can recognize the maker.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Ron,
yes, there was a Hans Sauer involved with the company J.P. Sauer & Sohn. If he had anything to do with the manufacturing of your Drilling I don't know. "Die Einzelfirma ist in eine offene Handelsgesellschaft umgewandelt mit dem 1. April 1904, indem als persönlich haftender Gesellschafter der Ingenieur Hans Sauer in Suhl eingetreten ist."

Kind regards
Peter

[Ron Vella]

Many thanks Peter. For those of you, who like me do not speak German, I had a German-speaking friend translate the above:
"What once was 'a one person company' now changed into a public company
since April 1, 1904 because (the) engineer Hans Sauer became the
personally responsible managing partner in Suhl."