Relining 16 ga Drilling?

[jillandsam303]

I'm considering a nice Sauer "3000 LG" sidelock drilling.

Has anyone heard of an "LG" model Sauer.

Problem: the owner says "Shotgun barrels must be relined and firearm is unsafe to fire in current form".

Are any of you able to help me determine the safe minimum wall thickness of a drilling made in the 1950's?

Anyone have suggestions of who is qualified to do the relining and the very rough cost?

Thanks.

Sam

[mike ford]

jillandsam303,
I will leave it to someone else to address the "3000 LG" designation. I am curious why the owner thinks it is unsafe to fire. Drillings typically have thin barrels, to keep the weight as low as possible. Did he report that he knew personally that the barrels had been excessively honed? I know that on another forum, there is a great deal of discussion about barrel honing and barrel thickness, but precious little about steel type compared to barrel thickness. I'm guessing that if the drilling has 1950s era proof marks, and the owner doesn't know for sure that it has been excessively honed, it is likely ok. There is a chance that he is concerned that it has 2 3/4" chambers. After the war, the 70 mm chambers became standard, so it is unlikely( although possible) that it has been rechambered from 65mm. A check of the proofs should tell you the original chamber length. The work you are asking about is usually referred to as "sleeving". I believe it is done in the US to double barrels, but I don't know of anyone here that can do drillings. I know a couple in Germany, but the cost will possibly be more than you can buy the drilling for. There is an article in the special issue of DER WAFFENSCHMEID on drillings, about doing the work you are asking about. This issue is available for purchase from the "home office" If "worst comes to worst", I suggest you think about a set of "Briley" tubes in a smaller caliber ( 20 ga 2 3/4" ?). You might also think about an Einstecklauf in the right barrel and a chamber reducer in the left. You didn't say if it is 12 or 16 now, or what the rifle caliber is.
Mike

[Axel E]

The description "side lock drilling model 3000 LG" is quite enigmatic to me. The S&S model 3000 series drillings were all Blitzlocks, the lock parts mounte on the triggerplate. AFAIK postwar Sauer & Sohn, Eckernförde, never made a true sidelock drilling. All my old catalogs, from 1961 on, list the model 3000 Standard (light scroll erngraving, steel trigger guard) and 3000 LUX (game scene engraving, horn trigger guard) only. But I have seen one or two special order 3000 Blitzlock drillings with false sideplates added. These are not lockplates, but just decorations. Such sideplated actions provide extra space for engraving and look like sidelocks to a layman at first glance. I have not yet found the "LG" monicker in any of my references, but it may have been S&S's designation for such special order guns, meaning something like "luxus grand". A photo of the action area would show what you are being offered.
A photo of the damage to the shot barrels would be welcome too. Of course, sleeving in new barrels is possible, but there are few gunsmithes here in Germany who will tackle such a job. It involves unsoldering ribs, mounts and barrels, cutting off the barrels about 3 – 4" from the breech, boring out the stubs, fitting and soldering in new barrels, relaying and resoldering the ribs, reproofing and rebluing. Over here cost would be prohibitive, at least Euro 1500.-. This is far more than a used drilling goes for here, unless it is of exceptional design, name and quality. I myself own a pre-WW1 boxlock drilling with new barrels sleeved in by Adamy, Suhl, to 16-70 and 8x57 IRS in 1997, see "Waidmannsheil # 54, page 25". I paid just about 10% of the cost of the conversion for the whole gun with scope and insert barrel.

[jillandsam303]

Axel, if you are stymied by the 3000 LG and sidelock for a Sauer, then I'm concerned. Here's the gun. Let me know what you think. Thanks for all the info on sleeving.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/j-p-s...0&Ntt=drilling

[mike ford]

jillandsam303,
Forget what I said about 1950s proofs and likely having 2 3/4" chambers. This is not a post war (Eckernforde) gun. Axel is giving you good info, so I will "back out" of the ID deal. His description of the work is pretty close to that shown in the article I cited, there are photos in the article.
Mike

[Axel E]

Well, this is not a post-war Sauer & Sohn, Eckernförde, 3000 series side-plated blitzlock drilling, but a pre-war Sauer & Sohn, Suhl, model 25a true sidelock drilling. The thoroughly obsolete 9.3x72R chambering was out by 1935. This drilling is certainly of 1920s vintage, if not pre-WW1. Only the proofmarks may tell something. about it's age. The 16g shot barrels are certainly chambered for 65 mm = 2 ½" shells. A completely different story. Back to "start" of the discussion!

[jillandsam303]

The mystery continues: I asked Cabela's for model marks on the gun. They said they had none, but gave me this picture of part of a page of a price guide that shows there was a Model 3000 "Luxury Grade". But it doesn't have a picture or indicate it was a sidelock vs. a normal 3000 boxlock design. IMG_20170621_1731421.jpg

[jillandsam303]

Closer yet...Here's a Sauer Model 25A that Axel told us about in 1922. I'm fairly sure this is it. Thanks everyone for your help.dsc_0117_web_54d8b986ddf2b351e7200e02.jpg

[Axel E]

The page Cabelas sent to you is from the "Blue Book of Gun Values". The info this book gives on German guns is very incomplete and often inaccurate. It does not list any of the many pre-war Sauer & Sohn models.
The 3000 Luxury Grade the book mentiones is just the 3000 LUX we discussed already and you are trying to sell.
The prices listed by the Blue Book are grossly exaggerated by German standards. The upper limit here for a 3000 standard (sparse scroll engraving, steel trigger guard ) in 16-70 and 6.5x57R, 7x65R, 7x57R or 8x57 IRS, claw mounted with a good quality German 4x or 6x scope, is about Euro 1000.-, while a 3000 LUX (better wood, extensive game animal engraving, horn trigger guard) may fetch up to 1500.-. Blitzlock = trigger plate lock designs are often mistaken for boxlocks, especially by Americans. The drilling knowledge of the Cabela guys seems to be very basic at best. The 25a drilling they offer seems to be in rather good shape, guessing from their photos. Ask them, what makes them think it being "unsafe for use as is". And, before you dive deeper in drillings, read the Drillings issue of "Der Waffenschmied" Mike mentioned, all pages please!

[mike ford]

jllandsam303,
First of all, I always advise people to take published price lists with a "grain of salt". Secondly, for them to have any validity at all, the correct description must be cited, including condition, and whether the condition is original or refinished. Since they seem helpful enough to send additional photos, Axel's efforts would be greatly assisted by photos of all markings including proof marks, under the barrel. If they don't have anyone capable of taking the barrels off, and providing photos, then how can you trust their judgement about the barrels. If you can find the true serial number, our member Jim Cate, can likely give you a good idea of the manufacturing date( this may not be possible with other maker's products). The caliber is listed as 9.3x72R; You should have them determine whether it is 9.3x72R Norm. or 9.3x72R Sauer and Sohn. These are very different cartridges, both of which were available from Sauer. This can be determined by simply measuring the diameter of the chamber at the "head" area. Common tools such as a dial caliper will suffice, to find this diameter. If it is near .427", then it is 9.3x72R Norm. ( or one of the other less common 9.3s, based on the .360 case); if it is near .473", then it is 9.3x72R S&S. Regardless of which caliber it is, you can either buy or make ammo for it.
Mike
It seems Axel and I were writing at the same time.
Mike

[jillandsam303]

Axel and Mike: great advice. I'll call them and ask for pix of the serial number and proof marks under the bbls. I'll get the "Der Waffenschmied" issue. Thanks again.

[Axel E]

If you don't believe the German price range for post-war Sauer & Sohn, Eckernförde drillings, take a look at the offerings of the German EGUN internet auction:
http://www.egun.de/market/list_items...at=66&x=13&y=7
At the moment, there are 26 S&S drillings on offer, only one a pre-war 25a. All the others are post-war, 3000 series drillings, a few LUX grade, 3 light alloy frame. "x Gebote" = number of bids, "SofortKauf" = you may buy the item at this price immediately, that is, the maximum price the seller hopes for.

[jillandsam303]

Axel, you sure know how to make a U.S. drilling enthusiast cry. If buying in Germany and shipping over through customs wasn't such a long and complex process, I'd several of them!

Interestingly the 25a owner is asking 4500 Euros as his "Buy Now" price.

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=6510300#img

Thanks, Sam

[Axel E]

Interestingly the 25a owner is asking 4500 Euros as his "Buy Now" price.

"Asking prices" are often not related in any way to "Getting prices". I have that 25a on my "watch list" and will tell if it will be sold at all. Fine pre-war drillings are often more valued than the typical post-WW2 Blitzlock ones, by S&S, Suhl, Heym or Krieghoff.
Guess how Simpson Ltd. get all the Drillings they offer in the USA.

[jillandsam303]

Right, Simpson LTD buys drillings by the truckload.

I've now talked to Cabelas about the gun. Their guy with the wall thickness meter (who's on vacation for 3 weeks) told them the wall thicknesses are below "safe" levels. I'm not sure he knows what thickness a drilling from the 1920s or 1930s "safe" thicknesses really are? He thinks the bbls were honed too much and the forcing cones moved too much. I think I'll buy the gun with the agreement if it's really that bad, they'll let me return it.

Thanks for your continued help and advice.

Sam