Nitro proof

[yamoon]

Hello All
I have a few Schuetzen & running boar (stalking) rifles that are nitro proofed, would the barrel steel be the same soft steel used in older rifles? Would it damage the barrel to shoot jacketed bullets in these later manufactured rifles. I would like to hunt deer with a beautiful Kettner I have but the first deer shot with it, I used cast lead bullets, they didn't expand at the velocity I was able to get from the 8.15x46r. I was thinking of bumping a 303 bullet to .316 & trying it. What do you think?
Thanks Mike

[mike ford]

yamoon,
For nitro proofed rifles, a few jacketed bullets shouldn't hurt. I would be careful with the action type for hunting loads, however. Aydt type actions are plenty strong enough for Schuetzen loads, but are not that strong, appearances notwithstanding. Even though they may look like falling block actions, they are actually "swinging block". Of course, a Kettner rifle could have any one of several types action. I'm sure you have "slugged" the barrels of your rifles and know the groove diameters, while I don't. I suggest, however, that instead of bumping up 303 bullets, size 32 Win.Special bullets down to your requirements. A 303 bullet will likely not expand as easily as the 32 bullet, which is intended for lower velocities. If you have the equipment, already, to bump up bullets, you might bump up 30-30 bullets, for the same reason. If you want a little more velocity, you might try 150gr 30-30 bullets. The hunting bullet for 8.15x46R is a 151gr FP Express type bullet, similar to the common 9.3x72R bullet. You might be able to find some of these bullets, but it would be hard. Rather than depending on expansion with a lead bullet, you might try one with a flat meplat or at least very blunt nose. Good luck, let us know how it works out. I'm sure others here have helpful ideas and some of them may offer some as well.
Mike

[CoyoteJoe]

To bump a .311" jacketed bullet to .316" would take a lot of swaging force and probably would produce an off center, crooked bullet. It would be easier to size down a 321" slug and that would tend to be self-centering. Also as Mike Ford stated, a .32 Special bullet would stand a better chance of expanding at that reduced velocity. Good luck with whatever you do.

[sharps4590]

My first question would be what cast bullet did you use? Having killed a dump truck load of game with cast bullets at moderate velocity my experience is that bullet shape and weight are more important than expansion. I don't remember the last deer or anything else I killed with a jacketed bullet. Frankly I've never wanted much expansion from a cast bullet.

I still use jacketed bullets in a few rifles where they're required for various reasons but haven't taken game with one in decades.

[yamoon]

I used a .321, 180gr gas check with a flat meplat, cast 25 to 1. The velocity was around 1700 fps. I was useing IMR3031. In retrospect, I should have used a faster burning powder. A 45 cal would be a more effective hunting cal with cast bullets as I don't expect much expansion, so frontal cross section is the important factor.
Mike

[CoyoteJoe]

I agree yamoon, for a cast bullet hunting load I want at least .35 caliber and larger would be better, still with a large meplat.

[Axel E]

A 1930s Keilerbüchse has a barrel made of modern barrel steel. In Germany the soft blackpowder barrel steels went out of use before WW1. Even bore dimensions were pretty much standardized by the mid-1920s. So soft jacketed bullets may be used. A pressure tested load, recommended by the DEVA, uses a 170 gr, .321" Hornady rn (unresized, as is) in front of 20gr VV N130 (slightly slower than IMR 3031) for 1378 fps. Pressure 1368 bar of the 1650 bar maximum.

[yamoon]

IMG_0023.jpgIMG_0024.JPGIMG_0018.JPGThis is the rifle I am referring to, the bore slugs .317. It is a 8.15x46. Any help with the proof marks would be appreciated.
Thanks Mike

[Axel E]

It's an "Ideal" true falling block action, likely one of the strongest of all the German falling blocks, see "Waidmannsheil" # 40 -42. It's what I called the "finger type variant", action most likely made by Max Lepper, Zella - Mehlis. I have seen these actions used for stalking rifles in 9.3x74R and 7x65R (once Mr. Burgsmueller's personal rifle, recently rebored, rechambered and reproofed to .30R Blaser), all high intensity cartridges. Your rifle was made and proofed in Zella - Mehlis 4.31 = April 1931, Z-M proofhouse ledger number 566. 7.6 mm is the bore/land , not groove, diameter of the barrel. So there is no earthly reason not to use it with smokeless loads and jacketed lead core bullets. It will probably digest loads that would blow up many of the old Schützen actions, including Aydt copies.

[yamoon]

Thanks Axel