Brenneke 2 1/2" (65mm) 16 Slugs - FYI

[Büchsemann]

For those of you haven't noticed, haven't been looking, normally wouldn't be looking or otherwise are not aware Brenneke USA has added their re-introduced 2 1/2" 16ga slugs to their website:

http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-a...brenneke-16tm/

I personally hadn't looked for quite some time but in a recent discussion with my contact (rep for Brenneke USA) I was informed that the subject slug had been added to Brenneke USA's website roughly a year ago. To add, there are plenty in stock at their warehouse in IA, from where they are distributed to their dealers.

As a requested note, I also want to add that if you have a pre-WW2 16ga firearm that isn't stamped 70mm, it ain't one.

For those of you that have missed previous posts on the subject, once the Brenneke slugs (originally introduced in 1898) and a few others had become commonplace most of the better German gun makers "regulated" the left shot barrel (rear trigger) of a conventionally configured drilling to shoot a slug at the same POA as the rifle barrel below at 50 meters. Pretty much turning such a drilling into what some would consider to be a poor man's double rifle.

I for one have proven all this true and am always interested in hearing how such has worked out for others.

Best regards,

Mark

[CoyoteJoe]

Very interesting.

[Leatherman]

Well I can't say I have had much luck finding a drilling that shoots the Brenekee slugs remotely close to the same point as the rifle barrel . I'm talking within a foot at 50 yards. I have two cape guns, one o/u and a sxs that shoot very well to the same point with both barrels. I have a friend who is somewhat a prolific collector of combination guns who also has had very few guns that shoot the slug to the rifle out to 50 yards. Now I am shooting my guns with scopes mounted so perhaps they might shoot better without the scope as double rifles regulation differ with and without a scope attached. I prefer scoped rifles so I am still searching for a drilling with scope that will shoot a slug with the rifle barrel. I agree that would be the perfect deer rifle in the thick woods of PA where I hunt. the only better gun would be a double rifle drilling that had the shotgun barrel regulated to the rifle barrels, three shots, if you needed them ! I haven't come across a double rifle drilling at a price I'm willing to pay yet but I do like my cape guns a lot. They are my poor mans double rifle and are lighter to carry and offer a smooth bore for fowl or varmints that a double rifle can't .

[Büchsemann]

Leatherman,

I'm sorry to hear that you haven't had the same experiences but feel it necessary to confirm that you are talking about you and your friend's conventionally configured drillings (SXS shotgun with rifle barrel mounted below) using slugs in the left barrel only. All bets are off when talking about "Cape" guns (buchsflinte), O/U shotgun/rifle combinations (bock buchsflinte), double rifle drillings (doppelbuchsedrilling), bockdrillings and vierlings. I have my doubts about post-War (WW2) conventional drillings as well. Perhaps our friend Axel, clearly one of our members with a great deal of knowledge in this regard, can comment further.

Remember such "regulating", as is done with double rifles, is a time consuming thus costly process. It is likely that some customers, not having any intent on using their drilling in such a manner and/or perhaps willing to take their chances (the luck thing), may have passed on the additional expense. Over the years technology has changed a great deal where people haven't changed at all.

Regards,

Mark

[mike ford]

This is what makes drillings great, they are adaptable to differing preferences. Rather than a slug in the left barrel, I prefer shot, leaving the right barrel( with it's set trigger) for an einstecklauf. The most recent use of one of my ELs was a bobcat taken year before last. Neither 8x57IRS nor 16 ga. Brenneke would have been more appropriate than the 22MRF. Just use what works in your drilling for your preferences.
Mike

[Büchsemann]

Leatherman,

I forgot to ask you how the left shot tubes of your drillings are choked, curious?

Mark

[Leatherman]

I have 6 different conventional Drillings and 4 cape guns , 2 sxs and 2 o/u. They range in age from late 1800's to post war era. Most have tight full chokes in both smooth bore barrels. But there are a couple with an improved choke, none with cylinder choke. Two of my cape guns do shoot a slug within 2 inches of the rifle , a Kersten Verschuluss sxs and a 1965 Frans Sodia o/u. They both have full chokes. The rest of my guns shoot the left shotgun barrel high left and the right barrel shoots high right from 6" to 10" from the rifle . This is at 50 yards mind you and I know most people say slugs should be reserved for shots at 25 yards or less. All but one of my guns have scopes attached and this may have a bearing on how it shoots a slug when zeroed to the rifle barrel. I have not tried shooting any with the open sights except my one scopeless cape hammer sxs which shoots 3" high and 6" to the left at 50 yards. I have thought of trying to reload some slugs at different velocities to see if it would change the point of impact as you would a double rifle but have not bought any reloading equipment for 16 gauge. I have Brenekee slugs and dangerous game slugs from Balistic enterprises to try. This has become a quest for me to find a drilling that shoots a slug well enough up to 50 yards that I would have confidence to use the slug if a deer was in briar and vines and there was no chance of a better shot. Now again some would say not to take such a shot but I hunted 15 years with a slug gun and took 7 bucks in such conditions and everyone dropped where they were shot. I have a great appreciation for what an ounce of lead will do. There is very little open woods where I live and hunt because of the way they timber the large trees and leave the smaller ones so the under growth is crazy thick. Mike in my state you would be fined if caught with a 22 mag in one of the chambers during deer season.

[sharps4590]

As I have previously posted none of my three nitro proofed drillings shot the Brenneke's worth spit, which sort of disappointed me. My one combination gun is from the 1880's most likely, it definitely is not nitro proofed, so I never tried a Brenneke slug in it. I'm just about certain the strong Jones underlever would hold the slug but the choke is long and tight so I assumed it probably wouldn't like slugs.

Leatherman, proof positive one must know their local game laws. In Missouri if a fella is hunting on public land or land he doesn't own he would be subject to the same fine you described. As a landowner I can carry whatever I want, whenever I want. Our foliage in the Ozarks is much the same as yours, at least where I hunt.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I would too, if hunting on public land; but it would be the same thing for small shot. In some places slugs or rifles are not legal, you have to know where you are hunting.
Mike

[Büchsemann]

Bugger. I'm not concerned about what the right barrels are doing as my understanding is the left is the barrel that was used for slugs in that the rear trigger still functions when the selector is set for rifle and the rear leaf sight is up. The left barrels not shooting the Brenneke slugs "worth spit", as Vic says, is throwing the aforementioned regulation way off. Noted sample size, if I have this correct, is nine conventional drillings between Vic and Leatherman. Adding to all this the slugs were designed to be shot in full choke guns. Of the nine two have IMP CYL chokes where I have none to try. It will be some time before I can take out my Brenneke and August Wolf. Sure wish others would comment, thought Cordell had done well and would like to confirm.

Mark

[sharps4590]

Doggone it Mark, now you threw a wrench in the works....lol!! I know both barrels on my Meffert are IC. The other two, without checking, all I can say for certain is they are not IC.

[Leatherman]

I think it has been said on another thread that early drillings were never regulated as the smooth bores were intended to shoot shot. However why do early guns have "not for ball" on the them if they didn't shoot some type of ball or slug in smooth bore guns? I have seen some early smooth bore slug rifles with rifle sights made by Springer. Now when Brenekee invented his rifled slug things had to change I'm sure. I spoke with the great grandson of Brenekee at the Shot Show two years ago when they announced they were going to make the 2 1/2" slugs in the US. I asked him if I could shoot these slugs in any of my drillings with tight full chokes even black powder proofed barrels and he said yes, the preasures are within black powder levels. At the time I had not ever tried a slug in any of my drillings. Now that I have I have more queastions than answers and he has not been at the last two shows. I have asked the guys in the booth some queastions but they don't have any idea of how the original combo guns were made , what choke works best and so on. I can't believe that there were not customers who would have paid for the left or right barrel to be regulated for slug when ordering their gun. It must have been a pretty penny to have done so . Otherwise all other guns were made on the same production jig which probably regulated the two shot barrels to cover a shot group over a target at a determined distance and the rifle barrel somewhere in the center of that. So it would be the luck of the draw to find a gun with a regulated shot barrel with the rifle barrel whether drilling or cape gun. I thought and heard from a collector that the o/u cape guns were closer regulated than the sxs configuration but I have debunked that theory after owning several of both. I now have an Austrian hammer o/u that still shoots the slug high and left of the rifle barrel so far off I would never want to try it at any game. I have two sxs cape guns that also shoot high left of the rifle with one about 3" off which is doable if you take your time and estimate where to aim. As I said earlier I have an o/u and a sxs cape gun that both are regulated within 2" of the rifle at 50 yards. These are keepers in my book. My collector friend has had similar luck with more guns than I have had. I really don't need another drilling in my collection, except a double rifle drilling, but like I said it has become a quest to find one with a regulated shot barrel and rifle barrel. It's out there somewhere .

[Büchsemann]

Without are larger sample size, more folks lettings us know what their experiences have been, I'm leaning towards the regulating of the left barrel and rifle barrel (conventionally configured drilling) being a special-order thing or otherwise a matter of luck rather than the norm. A document stating what the deal was "back in the day" in this regard would be nice to see but surely less likely to turn up than a chicken with teeth.

[mike ford]

I haven't been in this discussion, because I hardly ever use slugs, but I have a couple thoughts on the matter. In my article " A Combination For All Seasons" I think I mentioned that I usually shot the 173 gr HMK, because with the rifle sighted for it, I could put Brennekes into my hat at 100m( BTW this was with my Heym 7x57R/16ga O/U). I knew the rifle was regulated for that load, because a target came with it, when I bought it. This brings up a consideration that would apply to drillings as well. It seems to me that if a drilling had been regulated to shoot Brennekes to the sights at 50m, that would have been with sights set for a certain load, that may or may not even be available today. Also, I don't know how well new Brenneke slugs match the trajectory of the old ones. If a drilling was regulated ,as above, it would have been with the open sights as they were hardly ever sold with a scope mounted; and even then the drilling would have been already regulated, possibly with a load entirely different than the scope was sighted for. In addition to the difference in loads, a scope is mounted considerably higher than the open sights, and are often sighted for a zero at a considerably longer distance than the open sights. These are just things to think about when figuring all this out.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Mike, I am thinking along the same lines as you. I am sure the new Brenekee shells are loaded to a different velocity than they were back in 1900 so even if the gun was say regulated back then it wouldn't be with today's loads. These guns have to be tested with available bullet weights to see which comes closest to the new Brenekee slugs and it may not be the most accurate one. In the case of a lot of the obsolete calibers, there are not many choices available which compounds the process. I am going to the range today and doing an experiment with one of my drillings. I am shooting it for group with the scope and then without the scope to see if it has any bearing on where it shoots, rifle and slugs. I'll report tonight.