Accurising keyed stocks

[Leatherman]

OK I have a Herren single shot rifle I got rebarreled. No I didn't ruin a perfectly good original gun. The previous owner had already rebarreled it and made a varmit gun in 219 Zipper. I had it rebarreled with a Shielen barrel and chambered in 6.5 X 57R. I have tried S&B 31 grain ammo and reloaded some RWS brass useing different 130 and 140 grain bullets and the best group I can get is 1 1/2" at 100 yards. I am letting the barrel cool between shots and an useing a lead sled rest and 14 power Leupold scope. I am expecting better groups out of this barrel so I suspect it might be the original keyed short forearm which is not bedded in any way. It actually slides forward about 1/16" on recoil. My queastion is how should I glass bed the forearm? I assume some of you have had experience with keyed forearm stocks. One more queastion , does anyone know if there is any difference between RWS and S&B rimmed brass in capacity? I know RWS is heavy walled compaired to other 6.5 x57 brass in the rimless versions so it is limited in how much velocity you can get out of it. There are more makes of rimless bras available than rimmed. I don't want neck down other calibers as I have lots of RWS and S&B brass in 6.5x57R.

[CoyoteJoe]

First I'd say 1 1/2 moa is hardly terrible, I've owned a lot of rifle over the years and few of them would consistently do better. If your forearm is attached only to the barrel and not abutting the receiver it likely has no effect on the grouping, it just goes along for the ride. You might try a group or two with the forearm removed. You might also try repositioning your forward rest support. Sometimes singleshots group best when rested at the front of the receiver rather than out on the forearm.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
Somehow, we have come to the idea that any rifle that shoots larger than 1/2" groups is worthless. This is brought about by competition between writers, although modern bullets really are much improved. A 1 1/2" rifle is satisfactory for deer hunting. Unless it has changed since I left, the standard for German hunting rifles was 5cm groups at 100 meters, this is almost 2" at 110 yds. That said, there is nothing wrong with trying to improve your groups. I suggest you talk to a stockmaker; in preference to my advice, but it may help if you bed the barrel lug, leaving a small gap between the forearm and receiver. If it has a sling, use it for a carrying strap and not for shooting. As I recall, a Herren does not have a "hanger" like a Ruger, to which the forearm could be bedded with a little "up" pressure on the barrel. I don't criticize S&B ammo, but I tried it in all my rifles, when I lived in Germany, in comparison with RWS. The only rifle that did as well with the S&B was a 7x57 Ruger 77 Roundtop. Your barrelmaker is known for especially accurate barrels, so the quality of the barrel isn't really in question. You didn't say, however, what your rate of twist is. A 6.5x57R usually has a fast twist to stabilize 150-160 gr bullets. Depending on the specific bullet, a 140gr or even a 130 gr. modern bullet might be as long as a traditional 156 gr bullet, also requiring a fast twist. At the same time, due to a more streamlined shape, you may have to seat modern bullets to a longer overall length, due to a long chamber throat. I believe RWS brass is heavier than S&B, and would therefore have less capacity. You can check this pretty easily, however. I generally prefer RWS brass, but wouldn't hesitate to use S&B( work up the load for the specific brass, however). Sometimes, a new barrel requires some shooting, before it gives it's best groups. I would experiment with different seating depths and different loads, before I got too upset about group size. If you still can't get satisfied talk to me about trading the rifle off, I think you are lucky to have it and I would like to have the chance.
Mike

[Leatherman]

I have another Herren rifle in 8x58 R that shoots 1 1/2" groups or better as it only has a 4 power scope on it. It also has a keyed forearm and was made in the 1890's. If I was wanting this new rifle for hunting in the woods here in PA I would be happy with 1 1/2" groups but this rifle I want to be capable to shoot 3" groups at 300 yards when I hunt mule deer or antelope out west or on my upcoming hunt this July in South Africa. Believe me most oppurtunity where I hunt in South Africa is out 300 yards and more. You have to be able to place a bullet precisely on African game as you pay for the animal regardless if you retrieve it. I have always worked on my guns to get them shooting sub MOA even if it ment restocking and reloads were a must. The barrel is a fast twist for the heavier large game bullets I want to use and I had a custom 6.5x57R chamber reamer made to a 140 grain bullet seated out as the bench rest guys do. I am seating all the bullets .005" back from the rifling as the bench rest guys do. With all this done the gun should do better than the best group I got so that is why I suspect the loose fitting keyed forearm.
When I was at the range I thought about trying supporting the forearm close to the action but the lead sled front pad is too far forward and I couldn't adapt it . I will have to take some sandbags next time. I even thought about removing the forearm too but I didn't have more loads to shoot by then. It would be a good test to see how if any change they would make. The Herren just has a key lug dovetailed in the barrel so the stock just hangs from it and buts up against the action. The front swivel lug is soldered to the barrel 3" in front of the forearm . The forearm is the small tapered style with hardly any wood along the sides of the barrel and is tight to the barrel from the keyed lug forward. This isn't my first single shot rifle and to tell the truth I have not had one that shot as well as a bolt rifle. I even have some drillings that shoot 1" groups if I take half a day to shoot them making sure the barrel is completely back to ambient temperature . I have read on this forum and others about older mausers with keyed forearm stocks having accuracy issues due to the keyed stock but I have not heard anyone say they solved it buy any means. I am willing to restock the forearm and changing the barrel lug to accept a screw from the bottom as the later makers of the Herren rifles are doing. That way the barrel can be epoxy bedded from the action forward to the lug and the stock can be drawn up tight . I would like to do a full manlicker stock while I am doing it as I think the little Herren rifles look great with the full length stocks. But then there is the issue with the traditional sling swivel screw going through the stock forward of the barrel lug. I know the fist shot should always be to the same spot but that is with the exact conditions, temperature, barrel temperature , how the gun is rested and so on. I definitely have a lot more shooting to do as Mike and Joe have said testing all the variables. A labor of love, these guns.

[sharps4590]

My first question is have you shot the rifle at 300 yards? The "cone of fire" theory doesn't always hold water. It could be it is shooting as good as you want at that distance. Seen it before.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I'm not much of a long distance shooter, but to Sharps4590's point; some of my friends, that are, tell me they often get 300 yard groups that are much better than 3 times the diameter of 100 yard groups. They opine that it takes time, sometimes, for the bullet to "settle down" and stabilize. They are generally talking about their "dog town" rifles, but this could very well apply to your rifle also. It seems you have thought of most of the common problem sources, so I should just get out of your way and let you check them off, one by one. I do, however, suggest you don't install a one piece full length forearm. Instead, I suggest you try a two piece one, with the joint cut on an angle, so the front part is "trapped" by the rear part, with a few thousandths clearance between the two. Then, it shouldn't cause a problem, in theory at least. Then, you could use the traditional " loop" Mannlicher style front swivel ( this would be my preference, you might not like them).
Mike

[sharps4590]

If a fella wants a dissertation on projectiles in flight Dr. Fredrick Mann's book, "The Bullet's Flight" can tie your mind in knots pretty quick. Diz and I have discussed it and boy....we both had to read it a couple/few times before stuff started to jell. I expected that of me but not Diz......

[CoyoteJoe]

The Keyed forearm of a one piece Mauser stock would be a very different proposition from that of your two piece stock. You said your forearm moves forward slightly from recoil so it clearly is not butted tightly against the receiver and is not putting any stress on the barrel. I would again suggest trying it with the forearm removed but I seriously doubt it will make any difference.

[sharps4590]

In line with what Joe said, my Haenel/Aydt Schuetzen rifle has a keyed forearm that slides back and forth a tiny bit. With that rifle I shot the best group I have ever fired with any rifle, scoped or aperture sighted, black powder or smokeless. 0.344 at 100 yards for 4 shots. I was too big a coward to fire the 5th round. That was benched and bagged. I remember shooting the rifle without the forearm and the results were as joe mentioned, no different. I doubt bedding the forearm will make any difference but as with all things rifle, one never knows until they try. I am suspicious of the new barrel itself, not knowing how many round it has through it.

Along with what Mike said earlier a lot of barrels simply need "shot in". I had a Jeffery Rook rifle re-lined because the original bore was a sewer pipe. I expected great things right out of the gate but no, didn't happen. Fortunately for me I have had a couple other barrels re-lined and every one of them took quite a bit of shooting before they settled down. With the Rook rifle I counted the rounds and it didn't come on until after 200+ rounds down the barrel and changed it's mind on which powder it preferred at about 180 rounds. Fortunately it is chambered in 25-20 WCF so powder and lead consumption was minimal. It now has something over 300 rounds down the tube and this spring the squirrels better watch out.

[Diz]

I had to read it several times to absorb what they were trying to prove but there are several discussions in The "Bullets Flight" about bullets settling down or as some of the long range guys say "going to sleep" so your rifle may very well perform as good or better than expected at longer ranges. Also, it has been my experience that barrels need a certain break in period before the finest accuracy can be expected and as Sharps mentions powder selection can be critical in some rifles. Bullet construction and a hundred other factors come into play as well. All the suggestions proposed are worth checking and each rifle is an individual that sometimes takes a lot of coaxing to get what you want. It is an interesting project and good luck.

Diz

[Axel E]

IMHO 1 ½" at 100 yaeds isn't so bad for a 6.5x57R. I too would try the rifle without foreend first, but not from any "lead sled" or other machine rest, only from sandbags. I never use such solid rests, as many rifles shoot different when used from a real hunting position.
The foreend on such a falling block rifle should be bedded on the barrel only, without pressure against the receiver or fore and aft play. A bit of glass bedding around the loop for the foreend wedge should take care about this.
BTW, the name of these rifles is Heeren, not Herren. They are not named for their use by Herren = gentlemen, but for the inventor of the action, a German-Spanish engineer living in Paris, named Count Christiano Arturo Juan Antonio Heeren y Massa, Arturo Heeren in short. See "Waidmannsheil! #50, winter 2013".

[Axel E]

Some more remarks: The 6.5x57 and 6.5x57R cartridges and rifles are not rated as most accurate here in Germany.
Further, Heeren actions were a black powder design originally. Before a slight redesign by Outschar, Ferlach, in the 1980s, the breechblock slid at a 90 degree angle to the barrel, just like the Sharps-Borchard action. So Heeren actions tend to bind if pressures are over 3000 bar. You have no practical leverage when you try to pull the breechblock down by the triggerguard. I know two post war Heeren rifles by Furtdchegger, Kufstein, Austria, in .308 Winchester that will not work properly with some factory loads, only deliberately downloaded handloads.

[Leatherman]

I appreciate all your good comments. I agree with all the possible causes and cures. I am going to start with glassing the lug area and switching to sand bags. I have a Whetherby 270 that shoots much better in the led sled than on bags and it makes sense that shooting in the field would not be the same as well. Lead sleds are great for bench shooting especially heavy recoiling rifles. I know I have to shoot the new barrel in too. I will shoot up all my factory ammo experimenting with and without forearm and placement of the front rest on the forearm just to see if it changes the grouping or impact points. Sorry about the spelling on the name Axel. I can never remember if it has two R's or two E's. I know all about these little rifles and their limitations. I have read about their limitations and extraction problems. My first loads based on reduced 6.5x55 load data was still too hot and I had a 130 grain bullet doing 2777 fps. Extraction was tight to say the least. I dropped the load 3 grains and no extraction problem and got almost 2400 fps. I think I can get a little more velocity experimenting with powders as I was only expecting around 2500 tops out of this early action design. I will be happy with that. Also factory S&B 139 grain gave 2500+ fps with no extraction problem. This is intended to be used on deer size game only and I want hunting accuracy out to 300 yards. I will keep you posted.

[Leatherman]

Getting back to my Hereen action rifle, I tried glass bedding the lug area of the forearm and that didn't make any difference in group size. I noticed the forearm didn't move forward or backward anymore but it could be rocked up and down at both ends. So today I took the forearm off and shot it with the lug resting on a sandbag and guess what? 1/2" group at 100 yards. Put the forearm back on and the group went back up to 3". So now I know the rifle is capable of sub 1" groups but I do t know how to make it do it with the forearm on it. The forearm has clearance for a piece of paper can be slid between the barrel and the stock in front of the lug and in back of the lug all the way to the action. There is also clearance between the action and the forearm except where the bottom at the trigger guard is enletted . I have been centering the forearm on the rest all along. That about covers everything. Anyone have any idea's?

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
If it were my rifle, I think I would place something like credit card material, ahead of and behind the lug, to take the "rocking" out of the forearm. I would then shoot it to see if it would group. If so, I would replace the credit card material with epoxy bedding, if not I would move the credit card packing back and forward and try again.
Mike