9X57R treasures in Combo rifles

[Leatherman]

I have purchased a Ketner Verschuluss action Cape gun in 9X57R X 16 that I am planning on taking to Africa this July for a plains game hunt. For those who are not familiar with the Verschuluss action, it has extremely wide and heavy bolsters on each side of the barrels in which long locking lugs on the outside of each barrel drop into and the cross bolt locks through these locking lugs. Looks very strong to me. I have seen 9.3X74R double rifles built on this action. I have started testing of different bullet weights and manufacturers from 185 , 200, 225 and 250 grains. The most accurate out to 200 yards will win the trip to Africa as any of them will be good enough for the plains game I intend to hunt. So far the rifle likes the lighter 200 grain Hawke bullet I have tried but does not like the 250. I have some other brands and weights of .358 bullets coming this week.I am swaging them down to .356". I am using 358 Winchester load data as I have not been able to find modern load data on the 9X57 mauser and dropping 5% below minimum suggested loads. But even with the 27" barrel on my rifle the velocities are on the low side of where I would like to be. Basically I would like to have a 200 grain bullet do 2400fps and a 250 grain bullet do 2200fps. I am about 400 fps lower right now. Looks like in order to do this I would have to get up to the minimum suggested load in the 348 Winchester data which starts to creep into the 40,000 psi area with most powders. I plan to work up slowly but I have done this before on some of my drillings and cape guns and have yet to ever experience any type of pressure signs like sticking cases, flattened primers, even when working into some known hot loads. Most of my pre war germanic guns all have a larger than normal (modern standards) neck diameter in the chambers which I attribute easy extraction to. This rifle has a tighter neck chamber though. My question is what should I make my benchmark on pressures be for this rifle using the 358 Winchester data or even the 9X57R load data if I find any? Is it fair to say this rifle would be able to take higher pressures than a normal box lock action in the same caliber and era of gun?

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
The top load for 250gr(16.2g) .358" Hornady bullet, shown in the 1989 Wiederladen is 620m/s( 2034 fps). This is with either 43 gr of R 902, or 47gr of R 903. For the 200 gr(13.0g) Hornady, they show 670m/s (2198 fps) with 42.5 gr R901; 680 m/s (2231 fps) with 47gr R902; or 660m/s (2165 fps) with 50gr R 903. The "R" series powders are not available in the US, but since they were made by Nobel, certain Norma or Hercules Reloader powders will have the same burning rates. The maximum gas pressure is listed as 2500 bar ( 36259 psi). For this book, the pressures would be in "copper units of pressure" which are no longer generally used. There is no conversion from cup to psia, so maybe someone with newer information will comment. In general, the new units of measurement result in larger numbers than the old. All the 9x57 (no rimmed barrels) barrels I have slugged came out to .357-358". I have heard of others as small as .352", however. If I had your rifle, I wouldn't bother with sizing the bullets, if a .358" fits easily into a fired case. I do use .358" bullets in my 9x57 rimless. You mentioned using 358Win. data, reduced by 5% from the minimum. I had a German friend( the only handloader I knew there) when I lived in Germany, that used 358Win data(Norma) directly, to load for his M88 9x57. Unusually, both the rimless and rimmed versions of this cartridge seem to be loaded to the same pressure level, whereas other rimmed cartridges seem to be loaded to lower pressure than it's rimless counterpart. In an old Lyman hand book for cast bullets, 9x57 was listed as using 35 Win.( for mod 95 lever action) data. Unfortunately, 35 Win. data will be as hard to find as 9x57. I suspect that someone with a computer program will chime in in a little while and help out.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Mike, I am referencing a Lyman Reloading book 2008 edition on the Win .358 load data which has the .358 pushing the 250 and 200 grain bullets faster than the 9X57 in your 1989 Wiederladen by almost 250 fps. The max pressure they list is 49,400 C.U.P.. But I was thinking of staying around 40,000 C.U.P. with the minimum suggested loads being the age of this rifle. I would be interested in knowing the conversion from copper units to psia if that is what is used in the load data now. Just to compare the .358 to the 9X57. My first round of loads using 3031 powder at under minimum suggested loads are already averaging 1900 fps with the 250 grain bullet and 2100 fps with the 200 grain bullet. So I thought i had some more velocity to get and still stay under 40,000 C.U.P. if I worked up to the minimum Suggested loads in the .358. I have some 200 and 250 bullets loaded at the minimum to go shoot and see what results I get. Perhaps there is just that little difference between the 9X57 and the .358 win case that makes the .358 a little faster. Maybe I should reevaluate my expectations of the 9X57R then, since it looks like I might be approaching max loads instead of minimum loads.

[sharps4590]

Based simply on my experience with my two 9 X 57's, one rimless the other in a drilling, my first thought is try IMR-4895. I think 3031 is a tad fast to reach the velocities at the pressures you want. I have my chrono data for both 9 X 57's and I'll try to remember to dig through the folder and let you know where I ended up.

[Diz]

Leatherman, my reference is from 2011 and lists Pmax (map) by the piezo CIP method at 2800 bar or 40611 psi for the 9x57R. Based on those numbers I would chose my powders wisely. Best of luck with your project. Diz

[Leatherman]

Well if 40611 psi is the max for the 9x57 bolt action guns and only produces 2198 fps. With a 200 grain bullet, reducing the load to be safe in a drilling or other break action combo gun will put velocity in the sub 2000 fps area which is equal to the 9.3x72. Hardly the great moose and bear gun that this caliber has been praised by the Scandinvians and African hunters that love it. I was hopeing the ballistics were to match closer to the .358 Win which max loads are listed at 2500 fps with 200 grain bullets. But the Lyman reloading book only has the .358 Win which is what those in the know say to use for load data in the 9x57. But max loads go as high as 49400 psi and minimum suggested loads start in the low to mid 30,000 range. I started under minimum and am almost at the max velocity Mike told me is listed for the 9x57. It would be best if I had modern load data useing modern powders for the 9x57 that had preasure figures as I don't know what the actual preasures are based off .358 win data. This is very diapointing to me as I thought this was going to be a better caliber for larger game than what I already have in my collection but it seems it isn't going to be any better than my 9.3's. I noticed Varget powder consistently had the lowest preasures in the load data so I have loaded some 250 grain bullets at minimum .358 Win loads.

Sharps, the IMR 4895 loads have the highest preasures listed for 250 bullets but looks good for the 200 bullets. 3031 powders in the .358 Win were actually low on the 250 bullets but were highest with the 180 bullet. Hard to make decisions based on all this data. Have you used 180 grain bullets in your 9x57? The load data on the .358 Win has them going as high as 2788 fps which is no slouch out to 200 yards but the psi is at 49,800 , too high for this gun.

[Axel E]

The 2009 DEVA handbook lists some 9x57R loads with other powders, but only for 170 gr Sierra and 250 gr Speer .358" bullets (not resized):
170 gr Sierra fmj, 47 gr VV N130, 2608 fps, 2374 bar
250 gr Speer, 46 gr Norma 202, 2150 bar,or 46 gr IMR 4895, 2386 bar, or 47 gr VV N140 for 2200 fps, 2341 bar.
All these loads are well below the 2800 bar max pressure. For my Mauser and Haenel rifles in 9x57 rimless I load 50 gr VV N140 behind the 358" 250 gr Hornady rn.

[sharps4590]

I thought I had more data than what I found. Here's what I have.

I almost always work up two loads, one jacketed and one for cast bullets. Once the jacketed load is worked up, depending on the rifle and its bore condition, it's rarely used again because for thin skinned game I've never seen the need for more than a cast bullet or high velocities. Just my experience over 50 years. Anyway, the load for my Jaeger drilling in 9 x 57R with a 200 gr. Sierra bullet is 47 grs. of IMR-4895. Across my Pact chrono it delivers 2322 fps with average deviation of 2 fps, standard deviation of 3 fps and extreme spread of 6 fps. I took Axel's 2386 bar of the 46 gr. of IMR-4895 load under a 250 gr. bullet and hopefully the converter to psi that I used is correct. I tried 3 converters and all gave the same number. According to those calculators 2386 bar is 36,606 psi. Given the 50 gr. lighter bullet in my load pressures should be even less than that. Those are the results from my work with the cartridge in my rifle.

My cast bullet load is a 250 gr. bullet from Accurate Molds, gas checked and my records show 15 grs. of Unique with an open cell foam filler as the powder charge. Oddly I can't find any chrono data for that load and I know I ran it across the screens. I do have cast bullet data from my J.P. Sauer & Sohn Mauser in 9 X 57 and it shows 17 grs. of Unique loaded the same with an average velocity of 1618 fps. Off the top of my head I believe my drilling has a longer barrel by a couple inches so I assume the velocity from the drilling is in that ball park.

I can make no claim to being well versed in the preferences of other countries but weren't the Scandinavians more enamored of the 9.3 X 57 than the 9 X 57? Admittedly there is very little difference in them. I also have a 9.3 X 57 in a Husky and I'd hate to live on the difference between the two....nor would I want to be without either.

[sharps4590]

The site wouldn't let me edit my post. Not a lot to add however, I never worked with a 250 gr. jacketed bullet in either rifle. When I carry the drilling or rifle for hunting I always use the cast load. Placed correctly there isn't a black bear, elk, moose, whitetail or muley that can stand up to 250 grs. of cast bullet even at that moderate velocity. The BC isn't that great but the SD is more than adequate given that heavy for caliber bullet. Fortunately both loads shoot to the fixed sights.

[Diz]

Leatherman, The CIP Max is not designated for any particular action type but for the 9x57R cartridge. That is to say it should be safe in all firearms that were proofed for that cartridge but I always try for the lowest pressure that delivers the desired results. Some of the loads given are well below the maximum and still show good performance. My own experience with VV powders is that they are very flexible and don't get peaky as you approach the higher pressures. Your results may vary. Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

Crap, I always miss something. No sir, I have not tried any bullets lighter than 200 grs. I'm pretty much a heavy bullet for caliber guy and like to hunt up close and personal, you know, where you wonder if the beast can smell the coffee on your breath....

[Leatherman]

Ha, I always worried about the smell of bacon. This is all great information and will help me a lot. I usually don't have a need for the highest velocity as I hunt the thick woods of PA but being I am taking this gun to Africa I am concerned about bullet drop and down range energy. Where I hunt ( southern Cape) in South Africa, it is mountains and very open terrain with little cover. It is extremely difficult to get within range of some of the critters com paired to hunting in the Velt in the north where there is more cover to stalk in. Most shots are 300 yards and up and I will be taking a 6.5x57R Hereen rifle with 16X scope for the long shots. But the fun part of hunting this area is the spot and stalk, trying to get as close as possible when you are limited by your equipment. First time I went I took a 45/70 that I hadn't shot over 200 yards with. That is when I discovered you really need to research the terrain and distances you will be hunting in before deciding on your gun you take. But it made for a challenging hunt which I felt was more enjoyable in the end. I think the 200 grain bullet would be my first choice with 180 being my second choice but accuracy will be the deciding factor as you better be able to hit some of the African animals in the boiler room if you are going to retrieve them. I wanted to take a combination gun this time as there are lots of small game there like rabbit,ground squirrels, water fowl, dove and genea fowl to hunt and it would be nice to have a load of buck shot in the chamber when approaching a downed animal. Their antelope have a different aditude when wounded than our deer and will come at you. It happened to me with a Gemsbuc that hid in some brush after hitting it too high in the vitals. I didn't mention that I found out this Ketner cape gun shoots a Brenekee slug to the same point as the rifle barrel out to 50 yards. So obviously it must have been ordered to regulate that way. I have tried the Brenekee slug in all my drillings and cape guns as a close friend and big time collector of these guns has also done and we have yet to have one shoot this well regulated. At 50 yards the slug is starting to cross over the rifle left to right one inch but level. This is with the 200 grain bullet so far. I consider this my perfect PA woods deer gun where my hunting is done in tangles of vines and raspberry bush.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
As I suspected, good people jumped into the fray, providing good info. As to your previous question about a conversion from cup to more modern units, my understanding is that there is none. By that, I mean if a given load gives a certain "cup" in a certain gun and the same load is tested with a transducer; if the two results are used to calculate a conversion, it won't likely adequately match a different load( especially in a different cartridge/load/rifle combo) checked the same way. Everyone agrees that it would be really convenient if a reliable conversion were available. Consequently , people much smarter than I, and with many more resources , have made a great effort to find one. As I understand, this effort has been unsuccessful, thus far. On a different point, like Sharps4590, I settled on 4895( military pulldown, similar to old Hogdon) as the powder of choice, in my own bolt gun. I too settled on the 200 gr bullet, but the round nose version made for 35 Rem. This was many years ago and, as I recall, I only shot one Reh with it. Even though it fell in place, a Reh is not an especially stringent test for a large game cartridge. From the conditions you intend to hunt in, it seems to be a perfect excuse to get an 8x68S. All joking aside, if you use the rifle at extended range, you can be successful by sighting the moderate loads for those ranges and checking the actual trajectory for different ranges.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Well crap....again....tol' ya I fergot stuff. I mentioned the weight but nothing else. The bullet I use is the Sierra 200 gr., also a round nose as Mike mentioned..

[Leatherman]

Good people indeed. Your explanation on the conversion from C.U.P. To modern units not being consistent makes since. Just as our load data in modern books , the published figures will vary depending on any variation in gun, barrel length, chamber and case specs, primer and bullet make and so on. But the inconsistency in a conversion I'm sure would be impossible. I will be trying the 4895 powder next go round. I will be restricting the range of this rifle to 200 yards max and will know the trajectory for all the ranges in between. Anything over 200 yards and the 6.5 comes into play. I could just go out and buy a 300 Whetherby Mag or something like it and just carry the one gun but what fun is in that when we have all these fantastic Germanic guns to use. When I bought this gun we didn't know the caliber other than it was around 9mm. I prayed that it was a 9.3x74R but it wasn't to be. I have the opinion that bigger is better for the one gun that will do it all and reloading the big stuff offers a range of options to fit your game your after. It's more realistic than trying to stretch the limits of a smaller calibers with medium velocities with foot pound energies intended for smaller game. The plains game I am going after this trip does not require a large caliber and for the most part my 6.5x57 will do the job nicely. My friends and I have used 130 to 150 grain bullets at around 3000 fps velocities for everything up to 800 pound animals in our African hunts. Most one shot kills. Shot placement being the key along with a good quality bullet that holds together for best penetration . Thanks again for all the help guys.