8x56 M.S. and 8x57 Mauser ammo interchange

[Mauser9x57]

Hi,
In a couple of other threads I saw people mention 8x57 Mauser ammo chambering in some 1908 M.S. rifles or carbines. I have owned a 1908 carbine for many years and never thought of trying that. Got the carbine out today and tried Turkish 8x57 and the bolt would go all the way forward, but wouldn't even begin to turn down. I used the Turkish because it's the only factory loaded 8x57 I could come up with right off the bat. They imported a lot of it a few years ago and it was selling so cheaply you could have bought it just for the bullets.
While on this subject I have a box of Remington UMC Kleanbore ammo with the title "8m/m (7.9m/m) Special" on the top front. In the middle of the front appears "170 Grains Soft Point Bullet" in two lines.
At the bottom of the front appears "For Mauser and Other Rifles" with smaller type below (Will not chamber in Mannlicher Shoenauer rifles since 1919) in both cases the parenthesis I used are on the box. I had another box that went into much more detail on the subject of Mausers and Mannlichers, but it has disappeared. The bullets in the box I have measure .320 if I remember correctly. The box is sealed up with cellophane and I don't want to unwrap it now.
The idea of one round working in both chamberings seems reasonable enough, but what I always wondered about is what happened to M.S. rifles since 1919. I have ask some others but perhaps the ones who know are on this forum.
My 1908 is well used with most of the blueing worn off the bottom metal, but the bore is nice and shiny. It has a Lyman cocking piece sight and a very old looking ivory pistol grip cap. Otherwise it is original. Some old Western 8x56 ammo came with it and I have reloaded it a few times. I used the lighter load information for the 8x57 and it worked well. This is one of the firearms I will hold on to till the end.
Dave

[mike ford]

Mauser9x57,
The 8x56MS/8x57 Mauser interchange, as well as 9x56MS/9x57 Mauser come up for discussion, pretty often. This is caused by tolerances in the chambers and cartridges working out so they may chamber. From the text on your ammo box, maybe Mannlicher tightened up the tolerances in 1919( an out and out guess). Also maybe Remington loaded their ammo on the short side of the tolerances to chamber in MS rifles, or maybe by "other rifles" they mean M88 Commission rifles or Haenel rifles. I happen to have a quantity of Remington bullets intended for their 8x57 ammo. It mics .3215". You didn't say if you pulled the bullet you measured, or if you measured it ahead of the case neck. If the latter, bullets usually measure a little smaller in that location. As always I can be wrong, so I will defer to Axel, if he chimes in.
Mike

[Mauser9x57]

Mike,
I forgot to say in my original post that I tried the Remington Special 8mm ammo in my 1908 years ago and the bolt would not close. It went all the way forward and turned down a short distance, but less than half way. When I measured the bullets in this ammo I didn't pull the bullets. US ammunition companies made "compromise" ammo years ago. It was meant to be safe in both .323 and .318 barrels. The bullet diameters were under size for that reason, and the pressure was held down also. But having said that, I'm sure you are right about full diameter being in the neck area and not forward of it.
In another post I mentioned I have owned two .318 bore rifles. One was a neat little double rifle in 8x57JR and the other an old Oberndorf Mauser Sporting Rifle that was altered from 8x57 to 8x60 I assume soon after WWI. I let the double rifle go years ago. A friend wanted it so bad, I finally gave in. I had owned it for years and he had a Mannlicher Shoenauer rifle in 6.5x54 done in the British style in Belgium that I wanted. It looks almost exactly like a Purdey I saw at a gun show, but proof marks don't lie!
Dave

[Dan Patch]

While I am prepared to believe current production Remington bullets for the 8 x 57 cartridge measure less than the .323 standard that has not necessarily been the case at various times in the past. Several years ago I was given a couple of 50-round boxes of Remington 170 gr. bullets for the 8 x 57 cartridge which measured .323. The style of the boxes was the dark green and red which Remington used in the 1950s. Dan

[sharps4590]

Having just finished working up a cast and jacketed load for a 1908 in 8 X 56 even if the bolt would close I wouldn't shoot it. The 8 X 57 is loaded to higher pressure than the 8 X 56. Will the Mannlicher/Schoenauer hold it? Perhaps but, it's long been my practice to load to the lowest pressure possible and still achieve regulation to the original sights with reasonable ballistics. One could add that practice has served well over a few decades.

Without going to the shop and actually measuring the cartridge cases again I believe the 8 X 57 is a bit larger in shoulder diameter and in the case body just behind the shoulder. If a spotting compound is used on a case it will be seen where the interference is. In my very limited experience with the two cartridges I believe Mike is correct about the variance in chamber dimensions. I also believe the best one can do is be very aware.

[Axel E]

Dimensions of both the 8x57 and 8x56 M-S chambers and cases were "normalized" = standardized between 1909 and 1925, see my article in "Waidmannsheil # 56". Though some Mannlicher – Schoenauers with generous chambers will accept minimum dimension 8x57IS cartridges, most will not. The differences in max case dimensions, keeping your rifle from accepting "8mm Mauser" loads, 8x56 M-S vs. 8x57IS: length to shoulder 1.902" vs. 1.925", diameter at shoulder .425" vs. .431". And, don't monkey around with bullets smaller than 8mm S = .323" in an 8x56 M-S barrel. Even those are a bit small in some rifles. The CIP max bullet diameter of the 8x56 M-S is .325", to be used in a barrel with .326" minimum groove diameter. So try heavy, 200 – 220gr, 8mmS = .323" bullets, hoping these will slug up slightly to fill the grooves.

[sharps4590]

Axel, my bore slugged at .325 groove and I shoot .327 cast bullets at 200 grs., works great. A fella has to check everything when he starts working with any fine old firearm.

[mike ford]

With regard to the 8x56 taking oversize bullets; while I owned one for about a month, once, I never slugged the barrel and never shot it. Accordingly, I have nothing to offer.

Mauser9X57,
I too, have various .318 groove rifles and each has it's own requirements. A drilling in 8x57R/360 will accept the .3215 Remington bullet, a BF in 8x57IR uses the 32 Win. Spec .321 bullet, but my 8x72R KLB demands that I size the .321 bullet to .318. I learned a lesson in sizing the .321 to .318. At the time I borrowed my friend Gene's dies, and sized my whole "stash" of 600 bullets to .318. The lesson was to only resize enough to meet the immediate requirement, I wound up having to find more .321 bullets, which are not plentiful in my area.
Dan Patch,
The .3215 Remington bullets(170 gr RN) I have were packed in a bulk box of 500 pcs, I'm guessing from the 1990s. I never had any in the 100 bullet boxes, of any color, so I can't offer any measurements of other "lots" of bullets.
Mike

[Mauser9x57]

My goal wasn't to start shooting 8x57 in my 8x56. I just saw posts where people said 8x57 would fit so out of curiosity I tried it and reported the results. I have been reloading for my 8x56 for years using Western 8x56 brass. With mild loads and just sizing the brass enough for the bolt to close snugly they last for several reloadings. As far as the Remington Special cartridges go, I have had that box wrapped up in cellophane for probably 30 years. I did try to chamber one of the cartridges in my carbine, once again out of curiosity. I have a modest cartridge collection, my main interest being DWM numbered cartridges made for Mauser and Mannlicher Shoenauer rifles. But I have picked up other things if they are interesting to me. Actually I may as well admit it. I'm a pack rat and have drug home boxes from Western, Kynoch, Dominion, RWS, G. Roth, FN, IWK, Norma and so on. Some of it in calibers of rifles I have, but most of it in calibers I just dream of owning. 10.75x68, 10.75x73 9.3x62, 6.5x58, and on and on.
Dave

[Axel E]

Sharps, I am not worried at all about the strength of Mannlicher-Schoenauer actions. The low max pressures of the various Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridges go back to the 1939 German proof law. They were taken over by CIP and merely converted from copper crusher "at" numbers to piezo-electric tranducer "bar" numbers. These 1939 "maximum service pressures" were not established by destruction tests. Instead, the highest pressures of the then German factory loads by RWS andDWM were simply set up as "maximum" for the future. But neither the pre-WW1 M-S rifles nor the M-S cartridges were designed for these low working pressures, see my article "Some thoughts…" in "Waidmannsheil #57". I found a 1909 article by Richard Mahrholdt, author of the "Waffenlexikon" and owner of Peterlongo, Innsbruck, Austria. According to Mahrholdt, the German loads with German powder were loade to the same ballistics like the pre-WW1 Austrian loads. The 8mm M-S with the better German powders needed a mere 2800 at to do so, the max pressure from1939 on. But the original pre-WW1 Austrian loads had to be loaded with 43 gr of the Austrian state monopoly Powder III to achieve the same veloxcities. With this load the 8mm M-S produced the same velocities, but also 3400 at pressure. This was the max pressure of the 8x57IS too. Up to WW1 the lousy powder III was the only smokeless rifle powder to be used by all Austrian ammo makers and all designers of Austrian rifles and cartridges were compelled to use it. So all the original loads for the Mannlicher-Schoenauers, 6.5x53R, 6.5x54, 9x56, 8x56, 9.5x57, produced much higher pressures than the 1939 established "maximum".

[sharps4590]

Axel, that's very interesting. Other than the smaller recoil lug the bolting of the M/S is basically the same as the Mauser and given the same material it seemed to me that one should be as strong as the other. However, I am still pretty green in this field of endeavor. The idea that an ammo or firearm maker would be restricted to one powder would never have occurred to me. I understand and appreciate things are different all over the world and are always changing but that one....no sir, never would have thought of it as a reason for the ballistics difference.

[mike ford]

Mauser9x57,
So, you are a packrat? Are you sure we are not long lost kin? BTW you can pretty easily have a 9.3x62. Simpson Ltd. has 9.3x57s in stock. It is pretty easy to rechamber one to 9.3x62. I know of several that were made that way. Most of the 9x57s are small ring 96 type, but they do have mod 98s, most of the time. A 96 is also fine for the conversion, and will be cheaper. Simpson also has 9.3x62s off and on, but they are usually more expensive also.
Mike

[Dan Patch]

Mike: I found the last of those Remington 170s and they, upon remiking, came out as something on the order of .3225. They were supplied by Remington in 25-bullet boxes, with the bullets neatly arrayed in five rows of five bullets each. Don't know why I didn't keep one of the boxes, but it didn't work out that way. Dan

[Mauser9x57]

Wow Axel I never knew any of that before. I just assumed they didn't trust the M.S. action at the Mauser pressure levels. It's just amazing how screwed up things can get when the government gets involved. I really appreciate the information on pressure limits and that Tell ad you posted. I still don't have any plans for high pressure loads in my 1908. Thank you.

[Dan Patch]

A footnote to Axel's fascinating account of government control of small arms propellant manufacture in imperial Austria. In this period the firm of Victor Alder was granted a monopoly on the manufacture of priming compound for small arms ammunition. As a result, the manufacturers of military and commercial ammunition were obliged to send empty primer cups to the Alder firm for filling with priming compound. These were then returned to the manufacturers, who could then prime their cartridge cases. Dan