Steyr sporting rifle

[mike ford]

Vic,
I'm just curious about the fit of 8x56 and 8x57 cartridges in mod 1908 MSs. Reports over the years have caused a lot of confusion, especially with owners that have little or no experience with handloading/wildcatting, etc., so its difficult to explain what is needed to understand their problems. Now, it seems, we have two members with mod 1908s, that do have handloading experience; moreover, it seems one of the rifles will chamber 8x57 cartridges, and the other won't. This seems to have the potential for interesting discussions. By it's very nature, a rifle's chamber must be a certain size, or larger, otherwise it may not allow a proper cartridge to chamber. On the other hand, a cartridge must be a certain size, or smaller, otherwise it might not fit into a proper chamber. Each manufacturer has to set it's own acceptable tolerances to allow economical operation of it's respective factory. This creates the potential for a maximum chamber to accept a cartridge of a different nominal caliber, made to the minimum size acceptable by it's manufacturer. Furthermore, problematical variances may occur in either lengths and/or diameters. I believe the 8x56 always had .323" bullets, whereas we all are aware of the two different diameters( plus some manufacturer's compromise diameters) of bullets in 8x57 ammunition. Practically then, we need to think about 3 cartridges and some manufacturer's compromises to accommodate the two 8x57s. When you think about it, it's pretty amazing that different manufacturers in different countries, working under different standards, do as fine a job as they do. It may be informative if you could try 8x57I, 8x57IS, and American 8mm Mauser (especially Remington make). Also, if you could "smoke" the neck/shoulder/bullet area; you could pinpoint different areas of interference with different calibers/manufacturers. I was a little bit concerned about the incipient head separation you reported. Buffalo Arms ammo is often loaded using different caliber cases. For making 8x56, appropriate donor cases would likely require setting the shoulder back, which creates less chance of head separation than does moving the neck forward. Of course, it is possible that a case with unknown history could find it's way into the mix. It would be interesting to know the headstamp on the Buffalo Arms 8x56 ammo, and if they are all the same.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I did forget to mention the brass make. It was Hornady 35 Whelen brass which appeared to be unfired given the newness of the inside of the case when I dumped the powder. I'm about certain the bullets were also Hornady, 170 gr. RN. My rifle will definitely not accept the 8 X 57 ammo I bought from Ralph. It is evidently of German manufacture and while I can not say for certain it appears to me to be military ammo that had the bullets pulled and reloaded with spire point hunting bullets of .323. The primers are crimped in place and are Berdan. There is no name on the head, merely numbers and I believe a letter or maybe two I assume indicating a date code and a maker. Measurements of the 8 X 57 and fired brass from the 8 X 56 show the interference to be in the body just below the shoulder which according to the dimensions I have of both cases is correct. I don't believe the case neck is approaching the throat given the approximately 5/8 in. from closing where the bolt stops. The differences between neck, shoulder, head and rim are insignificant. I'll keep watch for some different 8 X 57 cartridges and pick them up when I see them, check them and reply back. Might be a while on that part.

I did pull the remaining 34 bullets and lower the powder charge and none of the cases appeared to have been fired, not just the ones I pulled Saturday. I believe I am going to reset the shoulder on at least a few cases just to see how it works.

Given all the rifles made in all the different chamberings in all the different countries over 100+ years yes sir, it is pretty amazing things work as well as they do.

My bore slugs a little big from what I read. Checking it until my eyes watered it was consistently .3245 to .325 groove diameter. The bore is so nice it screams for a cast bullet and I'm going to find one of about 200 grs. to try.

[mike ford]

Vic,
You should be able to find a mold that satisfies you, even if you have to use one for 8x56 Hungarian and size it to .326-327". In a 100+ year old rifle, a nice barrel is lucky. The other 8x56 MS is discussed in the thread on the 5.6x61 vom Hofe SE, you might take a look at it and compare his experiences with yours. There hasn't been any action on that thread in several days. I'm still perplexed about the head separation with a new case.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

I'm perplexed by the impending case head separation as well.

To me there are only three causes, though a combination is also possible.

Undersized brass.

Oversized chamber (linear)

Oversized chamber (radial)

Of course the struggle is then why did it only happen to 50%. The only thing to me is then the brass was made incorrectly? Or made from brass that was stretched, heavily resized, too short, and stretched again.

[sharps4590]

Nathaniel I haven't measured the unfired cartridge brass, honestly didn't think to. I will do that today. I guess anything can happen to quality control but I've used lots of Hornady brass for several projects and never had any previous difficulties. That isn't to say there can't be a first time. You might be quite correct about the brass being a bit small, undersize, and the chamber a bit long, the combination you mention. Radial dimensions appear fine.

I too thought it more than a little curious that two cases showed such obvious signs of separation while none of the other 4 did. I have not cast the chamber on this rifle so can't speak to what's going on there. Fired cases measure very close except for length. I do believe it is just a tiny bit long. For my edification yesterday I did neck up 10 cases to 9.3 then back down to 8mm, setting a false shoulder. The difference in fired cases and the ones with the false shoulder was miniscule but it was there. To me and my limited experience it doesn't seem enough to come so close to a separation. I think I mentioned there was a little primer protrusion with the reduced charge but it too was tiny. You could feel it and measure it but had to hold it up to the light to see it. I am beginning to think it is more of a brass issue than anything with the rifle. As Mike alluded to I suppose we/I should be glad that today we can get as close as we do. After working with the brass and rifle over the last couple days I've almost come to the conclusion that "this ain't no thing". A little work on the brass and all will be fine.

Mike, I did find a mold from Tom at Accurate I really like. It's a gas checked bore rider at 205 grs. I'm certain he can open up the cavity to .326-.327 and it should make a dandy.......I hope. A fella sure isn't finding any 200 gr. jacketed round nose in this country except for Hawk and they're just a bit pricier than I like nor do I care for the profile.

[mike ford]

Vic,
This will bounce around a bit-just different thoughts. I had meant to address the protruding primers and forgot them. This is often a sign of too light powder charge. The firing pin drives the cartridge forward, by whatever the headspace is, the primer ignites the powder pressure builds enough to set the primer back, but not enough to overcome the case's adhesion to the chamber wall, so it is not driven back onto the primer. Sometimes, there is a bright mark at the head area of a fired case, that gives a false impression of a separation. The way I check this is precisely as you did, I just use "tie wire" instead of a coathanger( no magic, just at hand). Since you think there is a separation, the case is lost to you anyway, so you can saw it in half to check it. In my experience, a too small head diameter(within reason) is not likely to cause separation, as long as correct dies are used and the case only has to overly expand once( repeatedly sizing the case head smaller than the chamber, will cause problems though). Failure to adjust the sizing die to not set the shoulder back, will cause excess stretching, which will result in separations. Bullet molds are often opened up with a boring bar, ground to fit the grease grooves, turning the mold blocks in the 4 jaw or on a faceplate. Centering it would be simple for someone like Adam Booth( youtube abom79), but it would take me all day and it still wouldn't be within half a thousandth. I sometimes suggest using already "on hand" 8x57 dies to load 8x56. This presupposes adjusting them to "kiss" the shoulder of a fired case, and some dies may require a little shortening to allow this. The expander button may need exchanging also. Since the 8x56MS is nominally smaller than 8x57, the 8x57 dies would essentially act as "neck sizing" dies.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Goodness, I didn't think it had been 3 weeks since I posted anything about load development and further results with the cases. I did set a false shoulder on all the cases and fire formed them, no further issues. For grins and giggles I also bought some once fired Remington -06 brass and formed 10 of those to 8 X 56. They worked really well with no work other than necking up, cutting close to length, trimming and fire forming. Accuracy with jacketed bullets is acceptable if 3-4 inches high above point of aim. The mold from Accurate arrived in record time, 5 days including a weekend. Wow. Tom's site said he was 3 weeks out. Great service and I do believe the best mold I ever received from Tom.

Cast loads presented a minor difficulty but one I expected. The case necks were too thick by .003 to .004 so I took them down to where they would chamber and still had .010 case neck thickness. Sized and lubed cast bullets slid into the cases after they were fired. Accuracy with the first loads was inconsistent to non-existent. I did start pretty light and suspected the velocity might be a bit slow. I admit to liking Unique with a foam filler which was where I started. When the load reached 16 grs. everything came together. All pressure signs were mild and the little 97 year old rifle put 4 rounds under 3/4 inch at 50 yards, obviously benched. To confirm the results I repeated the load the next day, twice, with nearly identical groups. I'm mostly confident the rifle likes the load. I have not chornographed the load so can only guess at velocity which I suspect around 1500 fps. Moving on to other powders in quest of a bit hotter load, I am looking for around 1800 fps, I tried all the proven cast bullet powders. As Diz would say, no joy there. RE-7, IMR's 3031, 4895, SR-4759 and one more I forget, oh, it was H-4895, produced nothing better than 1 3/8 in. at 50 and that was one time. The rest could almost be called patterns. I don't have any 4198 of either IMR or H and I believe they might deserve a try. The latter powders I find perplexing. I would have bet one of them would produce a good group. Ah well, that's why we dink with the old things, the challenge. Wouldn't be ANY fun for me if ammo could be bought at Wally World.

Nothing above is earth shattering or profound and I'm certain nothing many before me haven't already done. It has been fun working with the lovely old rifle and development will continue. I'm still hoping for a load around 1800 fps., just have to find the right combination.

[Nathaniel Myers]

Thanks for the follow up! If nothing else it helps the rest of us who have a box of loads waiting for good weather!

[mike ford]

Vic,
Check the velocity of your Unique load, it may be closer to 1800 fps than you think; even if not, you might go to 17gr.
Mike

[mike ford]

Vic,
Check the velocity of your Unique load, it may be closer to 1800 fps than you think; even if not, you might go to 17gr.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, I did that this afternoon and received a couple surprises. Diz had ran the 16 gr. load through Quickloads for me and his number came to...ahhh...I think 1585 fps(?), I'd have to check the figures again. Across the screens from my rifle it averaged 1616 fps. That was a little surprise. I tried again a 15 gr. Unique load and velocities dropped about 60 fps and shooting off the bags it was as accurate as the 16 grs. Given the lack of pressure signs I observed I believe I could try 17 grs. with no problems. I also ran the 170 gr. Hornady RN over 41 grs. of IMR-4895 and it averaged 2298 fps. I know every rifle is different however, that's a little over 30 fps faster than COTW has the same bullet over 44 grs. of the same powder. 3grs. less powder and nearly the same velocity. It's preliminary but this may be a fast barrel, I don't believe it's a chamber issue. I think that explains why the 43 grs. of what I still believe is 4895 in the factory loads from Buffalo Arms was right on the edge. Could be other factors involved but at this point I'm not convinced. I did shoot everything from the bags today and was really impressed with the jacketed bullet accuracy. When I did my part they all just kissed each other.

[Diz]

Vic, sounds like you have that one fairly well dialed in. Glad to hear it and keep us up to date. Diz

[sharps4590]

I think it's pretty close. As you know the problem now at hand is making the front sight taller or fitting a new, taller front sight without altering the dovetail. My machine skill are not up to that task but I'm pretty handy with a file.

[sharps4590]

I have been wondering about using IMR-4227 in this rifle and Diz voluntarily ran it through his Quickloads program and sent me the data. He also did AA-5744 but the one load tried was not impressive. 4227 on the other hand showed promise. The first load was with 21 grs. and an open cell foam filler. I continued upping the charge one grain at a time and at 24 grs. the group was nicely round and around 1 inch at 50 yards. One benefit of the 4227 was the elevation of the group also lowered to 2-3 inches at 50 yards. Wondering what would be going on at 100 yards I put it on paper there. A nice surprise was received along with what had to be either a fluke or a strong dose of good luck. First the 3 shot group was centered. Secondly it was just under an inch. That was yesterday.

Today after church I set up the chronograph and loaded 6 more rounds only this time at 25 grs. of IMR-4227 and a foam filler. I believe this little rifle has a "fast" barrel as the 25 gr. charge averaged 1948 fps, 12 fps extreme spread, AD of 4 and SD of 5 and an energy number of 1660. It was also just as accurate as the 24 gr. load except the "strong dose of luck" evidently evaporated and group size was just over 2 inches. That is almost 150 fps more than was the goal so I decided to try the 24 gr. load and loaded the last 4 cases from that lot that I had. As expected velocity dropped a bit to 1902 average and the rest of the numbers remained excellent; Extreme spread of 13 fps, AD of 5 and SD of 6 and 1582 fpe. Accuracy measured dead on 2 1/8 in for the 4 shots at 100 yards.....I took a scale with me that time!!!!

I believe I am going to call the project "mostly completed" right now. Perhaps a more accurate load could be found. Certainly I can load it a lot hotter but I don't believe it necessary and if I become convinced I do need more power than that there is always the jacketed bullet loads. It's been a fun ride but, as with all of them, it's never really, completely finished.

[mike ford]

Good show, Vic.
Mike