would like some help on a Jp Sauer & Sohn serial number ???

[Derek257]

I have a Jp Sauer and Sohn 12 gauge side by side that I have inherited and would like to know more .
it has double hammers , nice scroll work , balances beautifully in your hands and handles like it has a mind of its own . ive not shot it nor do I know if it has been shot in the last 40 yrs.
below the trigger guard it has # 86577
under the forearm it has # 577
barrel has # 86577
receiver flat # 86577
I know that it was brought back from Germany during or at the end of WW2 . it was passed to me from my dad who got it from his dad and my son who is 20 will someday have it as well
the problem is we don't know anything at all about it like date of mfg ,what its worth really anything at all .
So any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for taking the time to read and hopefully reply .
Derek

[mike ford]

Derek257,
It would be helpful if you could post photos, including photos of all markings with proof marks. Our member Jim Cate can likely help you.
Mike

[Derek257]

Thank you mike I will get it cleaned up and get some posted

[Derek257]

IMG_2776.jpgIMG_2777.jpgIMG_2778.jpgIMG_2779.jpgIMG_2780.jpg

[Derek257]

IMG_2781.jpgIMG_2782.jpgIMG_2783.jpgIMG_2784.jpgIMG_2785.jpg

[mike ford]

Derek257,
The proof marks on your gun show provisional proof on the barrels, by the eagle stamp. Where another eagle together with a "Crown" U appears, this shows a definitive proof. The 12 in a circle, shows it has the standard (for the time) chamber length( about 2 5/8"). The 13/1 is the bore diameter, in gauge measurement, ahead of the chamber. The "Crown" S shows proof for the use of shot. The "Crown" W, shows that barrel was "choked"( amount of choke is not shown, but usually very tight). The "Caveman"/"Wildman" and the two large crowns are not official proof marks, but rather Sauer's marks, I expect the Sauer expert, Jim Cate, will address them, together with the date ( serial number). It seems the gun was made by Sauer, for marketing as a "Miller and Val Greiss" gun.
Mike

[Derek257]

Mike Thank you so much that's already more than ive known all my life about this gun. Here where I live there isn't anyone who knows about the German guns and I have made inquires to several reputable gunsmiths and looked at numerous gun shows for one like it but to no avail.
I love the way it handles and tracks its light but the guns weight is perfectly balanced and settles nicely for me and ive never shot it but the fit ,finish and elegant engraving puts it head and shoulders above my other shotguns .
I really Appreciate you taking the time for me Mike and I'm looking forward to learning more about this fine shotgun.
Thank you again
Derek

[sharps4590]

Mike, I appreciate that also. I wondered about the Miller, et al, on the lock.

[Jim Cate]

Hello All! Actually Sauer didn't have a model number for this particular variation of their shotgun, but it evolved through the years to become a Model 0. The Model 1 did not have the Greener crossbolt either, but by 1904 it had become the Model 2 with the Greener crossbolt. Mike your info is 'spot on' and I find nothing more to add. The serial number, 86577, would have been made about 1901-1903 when it was probably sold by Miller and Val Greiss. Best regards, Jim

[Derek257]

Thank you so very much Mr Cates I do have 2 questions , since mine does have the greener crossbolt would that make it a Model 2 ? I could post a few more pictures if needed ?
and my next question is what load could it be shot with as in blackpowder or smokeless ?
once again thank you all for all this valuable information . I hope to one day pay it forward and return the favor .
Thank you again
Derek

[Jim Cate]

Sorry, but I have no idea what load (black or smokeless powder) could be, or should be, used in your gun. 2 1/2" field loads are available in many locations, but I accept no responsibility in suggesting these being used in your Sauer. Regards, Jim CATE

[mike ford]

Derek257,
The nitro proof mark for shotguns from 1908-1939 was a "crown" U. Since Jim Cate dated your gun 1901-1903, it predates the mark. Smokeless powder was available at the time and the proof for it may be found somewhere on the side of the barrel in the form of the proof load used for the gun. If you find the proof load on your gun and it has powder designated as "Sch.P" ( Schultze) or "Tr.Fl.P." (Troisdorfer Flinten [shotgun] powder); both of these were forms of smokeless powders. If it carries a smokeless proof ( and my impression is that it likely would), it is still chambered for shorter than modern shells ( 2 5/8" vs 2 3/4"). There is a great deal of disagreement over what to shoot in short chambers. Short shells are available( both smokeless and black powder) but must be special ordered. Some people shoot modern length light field loads in the old chamber. Some people modify the chamber by reaming a " long forcing cone". Some modify the chambers by reaming them to 2 3/4". Some people get highly upset over anyone modifying their own gun in anyway. All this is why I, along with Jim and others, leave the decision to you.
Mike

[Diz]

Derek257, If you like please PM me as we could discuss loads and loading for your shotgun off-line. Thanks, Diz

[Derek257]

Mike
I have looked again and found what resembles a u and a crown the problem is its where the barrels and gun flats are joined . I will attempt to take a few more picture and look for me a magnifying
glass so I can hopefully see it more plainly .
I would like to know who you might recommend to give me an appraisal on this gun ?
I have cleaned many guns in my life but for this gun do you think I should let a gunsmith clean it ?
thank you again
Derek

[mike ford]

Derek 257,
A "crown" U is the mark for the View Proof, which is basically a detailed inspection. I would think you could do a "field strip" and cleaning. If you want the action taken apart and cleaned, it might be better if you let someone else do it. Screw drivers will have to be ground to precisely fit the screw slots. Guns such as yours have locking screws to keep the main screws from turning. The screws are also usually "clocked", which just means the slots are all lined up, front to rear. Each screw only fits in one place, with the proper alignment. To maintain the alignment, they were usually marked to show which side they belonged on( those that were similar on each side). One side might not have a mark, while the ones for the other side would have a line filed on the end. In cases where a third mark might be required( such as in a drilling), an x might be filed on the end. It is important that the screws go back in the proper hole, and that the slots not be deformed; if they haven't already been. While you might need a magnifying glass to read a proof load, it should be marked so you wouldn't need one to see it.
Mike