O&U Germany shotgun without triggers

[Axel E]

I don't believe in the old story "especially made for Kaiser Wilhelm II" for several reasons. This legend goes back to a 16 bore side by side shotgun, then owned by Waffen Frank, Mainz. The guncase bears an old label that tells the gun once being shipped from a "Gunroom of the Royal Court" to a Prince. This was related by wishfull thinking to the court of Wilhelm II. But with a wee bit of historical knowledge it was shipped from the Royal court of Wuerttemberg to a prince of that house IMHO.
More reasons:
1.) Wilhelm II hunted all his life with guns having conventional triggers.
2.) The Kaiser used 20 bore shotguns exclusively. If especially made for Wilhelm II, the gun would certainly have been a 20 bore too.
3.) The contemporary, 1913, "Wild und Hund" article "Die Jagdwaffen des Kaisers" = The Hunting Guns of the Kaiser would have certainly mentioned such a novel gun, but it does not.
4.) Such a button trigger gun would be fine for a man who lost some fingers of his right hand and needs the remaining ones to grip the gun, provided the left hand can support the gun and hold it against recoil. But Wilhelm II had an unusable left arm from birth. He had a fully functional and consequently well trained right arm and hand. So he could pull triggers with his index finger, while the remaining fingers and the thumb were needed to control the gun.
So I regard the theory "especially designed and made for His Majesty Kaiser Wilhelm II because of his handicap" as an unfounded urban myth.

[MARAT]

Axel, thank you for your answer.
I know this gun. http://www.waffen-frank.de/galerie/detail/?tx_news_pi1[news]=31&tx_news_pi1[controller]=News&tx_news_pi1[action]=detail&cHash=7b0353776687639a3aa05618403368ae
My opinion is that it was made specially for winter hunting to shoot in gloves.

[algmule]

Hello

Heavily sorry for off-topic but I found another contraption that made use of the "Druckknopf". Carl Colbert apparently held the patent (GB 16 742). Here are a few images one of which is from an 1898-article.
01Colbert.jpg02Colbert.jpg03Colbert.jpg

Apparently there is an article somewhere in some publication which describes Colbert´s invention in use on a Mannlicher-Gewehr. I shall look for it but I can´t promise anything, and it may just be a rumour.

Here is some info (1896) on another Gewehr with a "Druckknopf". I haven´t been able to find any images and haven´t got a clue what Gewehr it is.
04OEDruckknopf1896.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

Don't forget the Winchester 99 "thumb trigger", a cheap .22 made pre-WW1 too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYYJKV2sxes

[algmule]

Hello

It seems that Colbert´s patent (Austrian application I assume) is from September 1896, and that it was extended once in 1897 and then again in 1899. See below
04Colbert1897.jpg05Colbert1899.jpg

The only mentioning I could find on Colbert´s invention being used on a Mannlicher is the below, at least for now.
06Colbert1898.jpg

Also: below is the patent for another contraption. This one is about a "Knopfabzug".
01KnopfabzugDE350862.jpg

Another also: could anyone with better hearing please tell me who the patent holder mentioned in the link provided by Axel is?

Kind regards
Peter

[fuhrmann]

Another also: could anyone with better hearing please tell me who the patent holder mentioned in the link provided by Axel is?

Kind regards
Peter

Thomas Bennett is what I heard

[algmule]

Hello

fuhrmann,
Thanks.

Here is something on Colbert´s patent from 1900.
07Colbert1900.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

MARAT,
awfully sorry if it seeems like I´ve high-jacked your thread but I´ve now traced the idea behind the "Druckknopfsabzug"/"Abzugsknopf" back to 1882 which is a couple of tads earlier than E. Martins D.R.G.M. from 1900 and Colbert´s patent from 1896.

It seems that a Herr Bela Schratzenthaler-Csaky (spelling on the Csaky-bit!) either applied for or was granted an Austrian patent in 1882. The article in which I found the info mentions that "beiden Abzugsknöpfe" is on the "oberen Theile des Kolbenhals.

Kind regards
Peter

EDIT: only have one source for the above but I´ll look and see if I can find further sources.

[mike ford]

For English only speakers, the above means " both trigger buttons are on top of the tang".
Mike

[MARAT]

algmule,

You haven't to apologize, your investigation is interesting for me.
regards MARAT

[algmule]

Hello

For those that are interested: there’s a short article on the Knopfabzug in the Deutsche Jäger-Zeitung Nr. 21, 1926, and it seems it was possible to get Martin’s invention as a single trigger for doubles – “Der Knopfabzug kann auch aus Einabzug gefertigt Werden.”

In issue Nr. 8, 1926, of above mentioned publication, there’s a slightly longer article (“Von den deutschen Kampfspielen in Köln”) in which an image of a Martin jr., Bonn, can be found. Martin jr. won the “Einzelschießen auf Wildscheiben”. He used a “Drilling 9,3x72 ohne Fernrohr, that made use of his father’s invention - the "Daumenabzug" (thumb trigger). Underneath the image of Martin jr. it says: “Sieger beim Schiessen auf laufende Wildscheiben”.

New to me is the “Daumenabzug” (mentioned in both articles) which really should have popped in to my mind immediately I started to research the Knopfabzug. Well, it ain’t always easy when you’re not native to langauages. Another thing that’s mentioned in issue Nr. 21 is that the pistol grip – which is larger/lengthened on the shotgun shown in images- is vital for safe handling with rifles with Daumenabzug. As Marat’s shotgun doesn’t have a pistol grip and is later than 1926 perhaps the hook of horn on his gun was an improvement or an alternative to the pistol grip. It may also be an after market addition.

Also, I know I’m annoying and I readily admit to striving to be so on occasion but I believe I’ve met my match. I so wish that the forum would stop logging me out as soon as I open a new tab and go away for a couple of minutes.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
I find it very interesting, not annoying.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Off-topic again! Or perhaps semi-off-topic.

D.R.P. 131223 - "Druckknopf-Abzug für Kipplaufgewehre Patentirt im Deutschen Reiche vom 11. Mai 1901 ab". Ferdinand Fückert, Weipert.

and

D.R.P. 201504 - "Sicherung für Gewehre mit im Kolbenhals gelagertem Druckknopfabzug Patentiert im Deutschen Reiche vom 23. April 1907 ab". F.J.P. Sachse, Gravenhage.

I had a few other patents that are related/semi-related that the Internet ate. I'll see if I can find them again.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

The designer of the Winchester 99 thumb trigger .22 was John M. Browning afaik.

[algmule]

US 632090 T.G. Bennett - "Bolt Gun Patented Aug. 29 1899".

Taken from Bennett's patent: "More particularly my invention relates to an improvement upon a certain gun forming the subject-matter of an application for a patent filed by John M. Browning February 17, 1899, and serially numbered 705,793." If 705,793 is a US patent number I for sure can't find it.

Kind regards
Peter